Chitty Chats with Stacy

Guy Stephens: Welcome

Stacy Nation: back friends.

I'm so excited about this
video series that I'm doing.

I have reached out to my wonderful
network of humans and I am so

privileged and honored to introduce
I'm going to call you my friend now.

I feel like we've had more than
three or four conversations.

Guy has been in my life for a
very brief time, almost a year,

a little less than a year.

And his work and his organization
is extremely important.

Alliance Against Seclusion and Restraint.

His journey, his talk.

I'm so excited to have
you here, Guy, today.

Thank you, thank you, thank you for
taking time for matching up our schedules.

Part of what we're doing in this series
is we're just letting parents, teachers,

educators, administrators, humans,
know that they're not alone in this

entire paradigm shift that we're in.

So I'm going to let you do a little
bit of introducing yourself and then

we're going to, we're just going to
chitty chat about what you do and

who you are and how this all works.

Guy Stephens: I am thrilled to be
here for a chitty chat with you.

Okay.

Not many things that I do
involve chitty chats and that

just sounds like so much fun.

And the fact that you're here wearing
an Alliance t shirt, I mean, that's.

That's incredible.

I actually feel really fortunate
to have had the opportunity to

meet you and learn about you and
you've been on our podcast as well.

And I guess why that's so important is
these connections, these connections

that we make are so critical.

One, to help us feel like we're
not alone, but two, to empower

us, to empower us in change.

And, I think about, I met you out in
Nashville at Matthew Purtell's conference

and sat across the table from you and
shared some conversation with you.

We're beginning to, to do some really
hard work, but we feel frustrated

and we feel alone and I'm just really
honored to know you as a human and to

have a chance to do some work with you.

I will tell you a little bit about myself.

I don't want to get too carried
away because it's easy to do.

I got into The work that I'm doing now
which is as the Executive Director of

the Alliance Against Collusion Restraint
which is an organization that I formed a

little over four years ago, and I started
down this road really quite unexpectedly.

My background was actually in marine
biology and environmental science.

I've been working in my
field for over 20 years.

I had no intent of changing gears, looking
for a new hobby, looking for a new career.

But I had an experience and the
experience was I have a neurodivergent

son who was physically restrained
and secluded in a public school.

I don't even know that I would have
known that restraint and seclusion

were something that might have
happened to a child at a public

school until it happened to my son.

But what I'll tell you is that the
experience was traumatizing to him and

really quite traumatic for our family.

And it led me to doing a lot of research.

I wanted to understand.

Why were these things happening?

Why, why were kids?

And when we looked at the data, it
was kids with disabilities, black and

brown kids, kids with a trauma history,
why were these things being done?

And ultimately, understanding that
these things being done led to trauma,

they led to injury, they led to death.

And having lived it firsthand, I
felt that I needed to do something

not only to protect my son, but
the more I got into this, the more

I realized that there were you.

others out there.

And there were kids out there that
didn't have anybody in their corner.

And I started this non profit really with
the mission of how do we work together?

How do we collaborate to provide
better environments, better schools

for kids, for teachers, and for staff?

How do we move away from
some of the practices that

actually can be quite harmful?

And they've been done for many years,
but that doesn't mean that they're

things that we should be doing.

And, the Alliance is really focused
on, initially, when I first started

the organization, the focus was I
wanted people that were going through

this to know that they weren't alone.

And I wanted them to know that they
could influence change, because,

here I was, just the dad, and based
on what had happened to my son,

I began advocating for change.

I began working with other people.

We were able to change the policy
and the practice in our school

district to reduce and eliminate
the use of restraining seclusion.

The year it happened to my son for
the very last time back in 2018,

our district had 750 restraints and
over 500 not a big district either.

This current school year, they had no
seclusions and they had 10 restraints

at the last time I got data from
them at the midway point of the year.

You can see it really
made a huge difference.

But, today we do things around
legislation, around education,

and trying to support people.

That was probably a longer intro
than you wanted, but I would

just say that I'm a fellow human.

That is on a journey, and I think the
journey is, and I don't mean this to

sound kind of silly, but it's about how
do we make the world a better place, and

I've had the opportunity to learn a lot
of things over the last few years and

work with a lot of people, and I think
there's a lot we can do to create better

schools, to create better workplaces,
to help better support human beings, and

once you see that, you can't unsee it.

I'll stop there.

Stacy Nation: There's so
much goodness in this.

Okay.

So let's start at the beginning.

So you have to remember I'm a therapist.

I'm used to listening to people
talk for a very long time.

So I'm going to go back to 10
minutes ago when we started.

Where are you located?

You can

Guy Stephens: stop me if you need me.

No, it's all good.

Where are you located?

So I'm located in Maryland.

So I am on the the East coast.

We are located not far
from the Chesapeake Bay.

So if you know Maryland at all
Maryland is famous for blue crabs

and oysters and the Bay and you know.

Baltimore, of course, Annapolis.

We're in the Southern part of the state.

Stacy Nation: Love it.

So I'm asking that because I'm
sitting here in Colorado, we're

in two different time zones.

And one of the reasons I like to
point that out is because as you

and I both interact right in our
little silos of what we do out in

the world, there's common themes.

And one of the themes is like,
how do we connect with other

people who are doing this?

And so for those of you who are listening,
like, My buddy guy is in Maryland.

I'm in Colorado.

We're on a two hour time difference.

We've taken a couple emails back
and forth to make this happen.

There are people that are experiencing
these things all over the world.

When I did my podcast with you, we
had people from all over the world.

And I want to point that out for a lot
of reasons, because I'm sure for you,

it's similar when you meet someone
and they're at the very beginning

of this journey, it feels desolate.

It feels like you're crossing the
plains of the West and there's

no one else behind you, right?

And you don't know.

And you, 2018, and here we are in 2023.

Five years later, and you really set out
to do the research, make some changes.

You started locally.

It sounds like, how did you expand?

How did you say, you know what
we did the work here locally.

How do we get this at state level?

How do we get this federally?

I know people are calling you from all
over the world guy saying, what do we do?

I just, I'm curious about that.

Guy Stephens: Sure.

Sure.

I'll begin by saying that.

Again, it was somewhat of an unexpected
journey, meaning that when I started

the Alliance my very first goal was, you
know, just about sharing information.

I had been doing research, and I found it
difficult to find the information I was

looking for, and I thought, well, maybe
somebody else will benefit from this.

And then from there, it was, well,
gee hey, I'm making some change, and

maybe if I share some things, it'll
help other people make some change.

I never intended really to see an
organization that would grow to a point

where we, we had an international reach.

In fact, when I started this, I had been
working the same job for over 20 years

and last year I actually left my job.

To focus on this work, and I, I say
full time, but I've been doing it full

time for the years prior to that, but
you know, the Alliance now is my work,

I mean, I had a really interesting
decision to make at one point, which

was knowing I couldn't continue to
work two full time jobs Which is what

I was doing for, for quite some time.

I had to choose between a job that
paid me a salary and benefits and

one that hadn't paid me anything.

And I knew where my heart was.

I knew I needed to
continue to do this work.

But our growth kind of
happened organically.

We, we started to share information.

We began a...

live series, which we've been doing now
for gosh, going on four years we started a

live series where we interviewed experts.

We interviewed parents,
we interviewed educators.

I think one of the things that's unique
and unique may not be the right way to

describe it, but when I started this work,
I was determined that if I was going to

be successful in helping to bring about
change I had to be really thoughtful.

I had to be really intentional.

But I also had to step away
a little bit from my emotions

because I had a lot of emotions.

I was angry.

I was upset.

I wanted somebody to pay for
what had happened to my son.

But I knew that I wanted to
really bring about change, that I

needed to approach it differently.

I needed to do my research.

I needed to work with people.

I needed to collaborate.

And, you know, I collab have collaborated
over the years with you know, people that

may, you know, for instance, in, in my own
district we formed a committee to look at

the issue of restrained seclusion across
the table for me where people that had

actually physically restrained my son.

That was not easy there.

Stacy Nation: Yeah.

Let's just a second.

Okay.

I, I think that that is so
important in this journey.

This is what I love about you guy.

You are very directed.

You know exactly where to go.

You're, you're so on point.

And I just want to talk about the
emotional component of what it was

like to sit across the table from
the people who had been involved in

a traumatic experience for your son
and your son, your family, right?

That is a big deal.

And one of the things that we run
into a lot, I think in this work is.

The lack of acknowledgement of
the weight of that and that it

was probably also traumatic for
the people that were restraining

Guy Stephens: your kid.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

weLl, I'll tell you a couple of things.

You know, one, when we decided we were
going to have this committee, um, the

whole time I was advocating to get
a neutral facilitator for the process

because I thought, gee, here's 80 percent
of the people that are with the school

district and me and a couple of parents.

I recommend it.

I don't know how this will go.

I did a tremendous amount of research
before we had our very first meeting.

I had kind of a little book of research
show that I would have at my fingertips

when I became dysregulated, I would
have information that I could go to

I'll tell you, I stopped at a Starbucks
before our first meeting where I was

going to meet another parent I felt
my heart pounding on my chest I had.

And, and I'm not somebody that
typically has a lot of anxiety, but

I had a tremendous amount of anxiety.

Probably felt like, you know, I'm
going to have a heart attack here.

It was really difficult.

But I went into that room and I
sat down and I felt like, okay,

I've got, I've got knowledge.

I've got information.

I've got data.

This isn't just about how I feel.

Very early in my personal advocacy
journey, which began with advocating

for, You know, supports on accommodations
for my son, who was neurodivergent.

One of the first things that I read,
when I really realized, like, I need

to take this IEP process seriously,
was from Emotions to Advocacy.

You know, Pete Wright's Wright's Law book.

And, and it was a really good
foundation to really think about,

you know, these things that we feel,
these emotions that we have, you know.

And we know, I mean, I know
now much more about how trauma

affects my brain and everyone
else's and what that can do to us.

So, you know, I think part of what I
was doing was trying to be prepared in

a way that I could bring myself back if
I was feeling overwhelmed with emotion.

And that first meeting, that first day.

That, you know, again, 20 minutes before
the, the meeting, I felt like, Oh God, I

could just fall on the floor here and die.

When we left that first meeting,
the assistant superintendent, who I

subsequently became you know, I would
say you know, maybe, maybe not a

personal friend, but, but I think we
had a really good relationship working

together by the end of the process.

But at the end of that meeting and how
it was facilitated I felt positive.

In fact, they ended the first
meeting asking the question of,

should we get rid of seclusion?

That was, I was the only one
that was pushing for that.

So, so, you know, I kind of felt heard.

But also, when I had an opportunity
to talk to educators, school

psychologists and others, we
broke out into little breakouts.

And of course I was a
little anxious about that.

But what I found is that we could
agree on more than we disagreed on.

And when you can get to that
point, and you can listen, and it

really does take it's not easy.

It's not easy to move past that.

You know, again, if you've been
traumatized you know, that trauma

puts us, of course, in our place
in our brain that we're not.

getting to our prefrontal cortex.

So I had to proactively think about
how do I get myself back there?

How do I keep myself there?

And I know more now, and I wish
I'd known the things that I know

now, then, because they probably
would have been really helpful.

But I think the overall idea was You know,
we're going to be far more successful

collaborating than just, you know, I mean,
there's a temptation when you've been

wrong to want to burn the system down
you know, kind of figuratively and, and,

you know, the truth is that, you know, I
believe in approaches like raw screens,

collaborative, proactive solutions not
only for kids, but like, As adults, like

we're going to do better if we can work
together, that's right, that's right.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Stacy Nation: I think that your story,
that piece of your story is so critical

for people to hear, because I hear all
the time, Stacey, how do I work with these

people who don't understand what I know?

Stacey, how do I work with
parents who don't understand?

Like on both sides, right?

It's all the way around.

And you said something really
important is once you know this

information, you can't unknow it.

It just makes sense.

It just makes sense.

So you go down this road, you do
this research, you start locally,

you start to make some change and
some advocacy and you see some things

shifting and then, and then what

Guy Stephens: happens?

So, so in terms of the, the growth
question you know, we begin doing these

live events where we have people from all
over the world that start joining on as

you mentioned when you were on our our
As our live series we had probably people

from New Zealand and Australia and the
UK and India and, you know, the things

that we're, that we're working on here
that sometimes feel very unique to us.

There are people all over the world
that are working on very similar things.

There are people all over the world
that realize a lot of the approaches

that we're using in our schools, you
know, as an example, you know, a lot

of the behavioral, Approaches that are
being used are not working for kids.

They're not working for adults.

So, you know, we began to kind of
get more and more people involved.

We began to try to support initially
that the thought was, how do we support?

changes locally.

That's, that's where I began.

Next it was, can we support
changes at a state level?

I began doing some work within my state
of Maryland, but very quickly began

branching out to, can I help other
states that are going through this?

And, you know, when the alliance
formed there weren't a lot of other

organizations doing this work.

In fact, I had searched the internet
looking for a community like the

one that we ultimately created.

and really didn't find them.

I found, I found remnants.

I found communities that had started
maybe around a piece of legislation

and then they kind of disappeared.

I found, you know, organizations
that became active at certain

points and cycles, but really
weren't doing a lot of work on this.

And you know, there really, I thought
was a need to, to really push this work.

But as we began to do more of it.

People began to reach out like, Hey,
you know, we're, we're, you know,

because here's this organization.

If you, you know, are looking
to learn about restrained

seclusion you know, we're, what
you're going to find on Google.

And suddenly the press was reaching out.

We had people in different states
that were reaching out for help.

We began to provide testimony
in various states whether it was

Illinois or Maine or Washington state.

You know, we've been working with states
across the country to try to support.

We also have a tremendous community
and I'm so proud of our community.

You know, if you go to our social media
and, you know, I guess maybe we're a

little old fashioned in that Facebook
is probably our most active channel

because we have a lot of parents.

We have a lot of educators, but,
you know, considering that we talk

about some pretty tough things,
it's a really civil place to be.

It's a really compassionate
and understanding place to be.

And our audience.

They're composed of parents who have
had children that have been restrained,

secluded, suspended, expelled,
subjected to corporal punishment.

There's self advocates,
autistic self advocates, who

have experienced these things.

We have a lot of teachers,
paraprofessionals, school administrators,

psychologists, social workers.

I mean, it really is a broad community,
and what ties us together is this

thought that, like, we can do better.

We can do better, and we
can do better for all of us.

And it's really easy sometimes
when you're doing advocacy work to

get into an us versus them model.

And that's not what
we're trying to do here.

We want to, you know, I mean our
vision is about safer schools, right?

And it's for the kids, the
teachers, and the staff.

We want to collaborate
and work with people.

And I think that's been
part of the growth.

But I think, you know, part of this is
we're focused on something very specific.

That while...

You know, I mean, there's a lot of people
you'll talk to in education even that

don't even know these things happen.

But there are many people, unfortunately,
that have had these experiences.

And, you know, fortunately, because
the world has become more of a

global community now, I can reach
out to colleagues all over the world.

I mean, the fact that you and I can
pop on anytime we want and have a

conversation, or I can say, Hey, you
want to join me for, for Well, I don't

call them chitty chats, but you know,
a chitty chat on, on the Alliance, you

know, live program where I can join you.

There's a lot of hope about that.

So I think that the growth was very
organic, you know, as, as we began to

grow you know, the media was reaching
out, other states, I mean, we work

with lawmakers in other states, you
know, we might work on a local level.

You know, at a school or school district
we were supporting a district recently,

and I say supporting, that means having
conversations, trying to help a school

district in Vermont that had one of the
highest rates of restraint and seclusion

in the state, and you know what, that
superintendent a gentleman named Mike

very collaborative and, and working with
the board to bring about positive change,

and they recently passed a new policy You
know, we certainly are not responsible

for that in full, but we helped.

We were involved.

We, we tried to offer alternatives
and we tried to, to provide help.

We work on a state level.

You know, Washington State had a great
bill that was around this past term.

Unfortunately, it didn't pass, but
it will be back and I think it will.

And, and we work on a national level.

You know, I've advocated for the
Keeping All Students Safe Act,

which is federal legislation that
would ban the use of seclusion.

Ban prone and supine restraint.

And again, for those in your audience
that don't realize it, you know,

prone restraint, you know, face down
restraint can be used on five year

olds in some states around the country.

Well, that's how I got

Stacy Nation: into this work.

I was restraining kids that
were as young as six and seven

years old in a prone position.

And so I think that's important for me
just to acknowledge that Juan with you.

Sure, sure.

There's many of us out there who've been
trained in these models, who've done these

things, who didn't feel good doing them,
but that's just what we've always done.

We didn't know any better.

And now we know!

Yeah,

Guy Stephens: that,
that, that's exactly it.

It's the when you know better.

And if you know better, I think you
have an obligation to do better,

you know, you're, you're in you
know, I guess really good company

for lack of a better way to put it.

I mean, you know, a lot of times we
are taught approaches and when we're

taught approaches you know, that's,
that's what we're taught to do.

And it's interesting because one of
the things you probably know about

me is that I'm not a huge advocate of
compliance based approaches, right?

I'm an advocate for.

Connection.

I'm an advocate for neuroscience.

I'm an advocate for trauma informed care.

And a lot of our approaches in
our schools and in many places

is very compliance based.

And the problem with compliance based,
you know, approaches, of course, is that

they're not They're often not helping
kids that really need our help, and

they're often quite traumatizing to
kids, and it's not just about things like

restraint and seclusion, but when kids
are having a hard time, and, you know,

the only approaches are compliance based
approaches, and you assume that they

have the ability to do the things you're
asking them to do It's really not only

frustrating in the moment, but it's really
demoralizing, I mean, a lot of kids have

very low self esteem, they see themselves
as problems, they feel like they can't

meet people's expectations, and you know
what, they say, we can do better, there

are better things we can do to support
kids, you know, this is about raising tiny

humans and, and doing a good job at it.

Love that.

Stacy Nation: And I think, you know, I
think for many people that are listening

in our audience, if you've, if you've not
gone down the path of there's a different

option besides compliance based learning,
we're here, we're here to help you.

This whole series involves people
who do connection, regulation,

trauma informed practices, all those
things, which are really important.

We also didn't have all that information.

25 years ago.

Guy Stephens: Well, and we still
don't have it broadly today.

You know, higher ed is unfortunately
running decades behind.

Our schools are running decades behind.

And you know, I mean,
this is not about blame.

This is not about shame.

This is about like,
Hey, we're on a journey.

Join us.

Let's, let's learn more.

Let's figure out what we can do to do
better because I'm a firm believer,

the things that we can do better, you
know, when it comes to, for instance,

working with children or working with
any human, those things we can do

better are also really beneficial to us.

All of this work really starts with us.

If, if we want to do better, we've
got to begin looking at ourselves.

And you know, sometimes that's
not the approach that we take.

We think about other people and we,
we think about them making willful

decisions to do things in a certain way,
when in fact we know a lot more today.

Stacy Nation: Yeah.

Well, let's just sit
with that for a second.

We have to look at ourselves.

Oh, that's so hard.

Right?

So when I know you're a proponent of
this, we never ask kids to do things.

We're not willing to do ourselves.

Right.

Right.

And part of that is
looking at our own journey.

What is our own emotional regulation?

How do we take care of ourselves?

How do we.

How do we connect with
people who've hurt us?

How do we restore,
repair, all those things?

And that's one of the reasons I really
love talking to you because not only is

your organization making change in policy
and practice, you're living this work.

Guy Stephens: aNd, you know, live this
work as a father, live this work as an

advocate live this work as someone who's
working really hard to develop training

and materials that help people to also,
you know, kind of embrace this journey.

And, you know, I can tell you, you know.

As you said before, it's like,
none of us are, are perfect.

I look back at the early days of
my parenting with a little bit of

horror, thinking, Oh gosh, I wish
I had known then what I know now.

Oh my gosh, did it, did I really do that?

You know, and, and, you know, I
also look back on moments where.

I learned things that were so critical
and, and now with the you know, the,

the knowledge I've acquired through,
through research, through getting to

have conversations with, with people like
you, the knowledge that I've acquired

actually now explains some of the things
that I didn't have an explanation for.

But, you know, when I, when
I first realized that my son,

who was neurodivergent, that.

that my demeanor, that my calm
meant so much in the moment

when things were going wrong.

When I learned to take a step backwards,
when I learned to have a very calm

and soothing voice, when I learned
to give him a moment when he needed a

moment, It made a world of difference.

In fact, I remember at one point,
you know, my son was pretty young and

my wife went like, I don't get it.

Why does he respond differently for you?

Well, it's because I was responding
differently, what I was doing.

And you know, we say it starts with you.

And of course, you know, well, and,
and I think many people intuitively

know this, but in the moment forget,
but you know, how we feel, how our

emotions are taking grip of us.

If we're feeling dysregulated.

We can't help someone else
in that moment, right?

If we're dysregulated, the same thing
happens to us that happens to a child.

When we become dysregulated,
our thinking brain goes offline.

Anybody here ever said something
when they were really upset

and they later regretted it?

We weren't thinking about that.

We were dysregulated and I
think we've got to know, we've

got to be vulnerable, right?

We've got to realize that even as
adults, you know, I won't, well, I

mean, I'm 53 years old, even at 53
years old I'm gonna, I'm gonna have

bad moments where I'm overwhelmed.

Something is, is not going well.

And I'm going to become dysregulated.

We need to understand that and
that's human and that's normal.

But we do need to understand how important
are, you know, our demeanor, our approach,

our words, all the things that we can
do meaning are really meaningful to

someone else that's having a hard time.

Love that.

Stacy Nation: I have been
living and breathing.

trauma informed information since 2006.

I preach it.

There's probably not an hour in a day
that I don't think about brain science,

neuroscience, emotional regulation,
and I'm a parent of teenagers and I

can lose my ever loving mind some days.

Right.

And so I always tell people,
this is a journey for all of us.

We're always looking in the mirror,
the beauty of losing your business

with your own teams, even though,
you know, everything, and we're

experts in this field and la la la.

We have an opportunity to
practice the repair part, right?

And that is the critical
component for connection.

And one of the things I really
appreciate about you sharing

your story is sitting across.

People across the table with people
who had impacted your family in such

a huge way, because I'm guessing
there were moments of being able to

repair, of being able to be vulnerable,
of being able to say, yeah, that

didn't feel good for me either.

And, and you look at it more from
We're tackling a system and a

problem of how education has been
developed, what's going on together.

This is everyone in it.

Everyone involved in it is
a part of that solution.

It's not an us versus them.

And we know information
that's really helpful.

So you shared when I'm calm,
my kids respond better.

What's, what are two or three other
things in your journey that are the

standout go tos for you that have been
game changers that you've learned?

Guy Stephens: Yeah.

You know, I mean, I think
I hit on a couple of them.

I mean, calm is one of them,
but, you know, the very calm,

soothing voice is really important.

Hey, buddy, you need a minute?

Okay, I understand.

Apologizing, apologizing when, not if,
because we will, apologizing when we When

we mess up, you know, and, and we do you
know, we expect kids to apologize and

sometimes try to force apologies and, and,
and I don't think that's ever appropriate

but I think for us to sincerely apologize,
like, hey, you know what, I kind of

lost it and, and I'm sorry you know.

It's not about making excuses.

It's not about Mr.

Chaz one time I was talking to
him and he had a quote, he said,

leave your butts in your pants.

Like an apology shouldn't have
a butt behind it, you know,

shouldn't say, I'm sorry, but,
and that's an easy thing to do.

So, I mean, you know, that, that's
another thing that, that I've learned,

but I've had the opportunity to
learn from a lot of brilliant people.

And I always feel like, you know, I
greatly appreciate the opportunity

and the honor to talk to so many
amazing People that are changemakers.

And of course, at the end of the day
we're all people, you know, everybody's,

you know, with their, there's, but I
think about something that our friend

Joe Brummer says about accountability.

And Joe, of course, you know, wrote a
book on trauma informed restorative you

know, approaches and, and Joe talks about
how accountability should feel good.

That's something that's really stuck
with me, that idea that like, Hey, you

know, it's not just about these punitive
consequences, doing things to people.

It's like.

When we mess up, whether it's us or
whether it's a kid, like when you

repair something, that should feel good.

So, you know, I think some of the
big things I've learned are being

accountable myself, understanding my
own state, and sometimes being able to

do something that might help me in that
moment when I'm feeling dysregulated.

So many things we can do, but...

It's a journey.

And you know, none of us
are going to be perfect.

So I think the other thing is forgiveness,
you know, for ourselves and for

others when we're not at our best,
because we're all going to be there.

Stacy Nation: Love that.

So the big question, I mean, I think
there's a couple of things that are

happening that are very exciting.

I would love it if you would chat
a minute about your work with,

the Crisis Prevention Institute.

Are you up for

Guy Stephens: that?

Yeah, no, absolutely.

For

Stacy Nation: me, this is a game changer.

So I'm so excited

Guy Stephens: about this.

Right.

No, absolutely.

In fact I, I was a couple of minutes
late for getting on here today and

I was actually in a meeting for with
the Crisis Prevention Institute and

a number of Administrators and heads
of special education and student

services and people across the country.

So let me, let me tell
you a little bit about it.

So, when you think about Crisis
Prevention Institute, you probably, of

course, think about their well known
nonviolent crisis intervention training.

I will be very candid with you and
say that my son was restrained.

in the name of CPI.

He was being restrained using
CPI holds at his school.

That was a training that they took.

So you might wonder why on earth would
the Alliance Against Seclusion and

Restraint be working with a company that
actually teaches holds or restraints?

And that's a really good question to ask.

The answer is of course you know, somewhat
somewhat long, but I'll, I'll simplify it.

And that is that after a lot of
discussion, I kind of have a philosophy

that I'll talk to anybody, even if I don't
necessarily agree with what they do or

what they think, or maybe what I think
about what they do or what they think.

I'm always willing to have
a conversation with anybody.

And part of having conversation means
not just speaking, but listening.

And I've always.

pride of myself on the ability to make
space for those that I might not agree

with because you will never collaborate.

You will never work with somebody towards
change if you can't work with them at all.

So I had a series of, well, you know,
it goes back a little bit further,

but I had a series of conversations
with somebody from CPI about a year

ago, and there were some conversations
about potential collaboration.

My initial response was,
yeah, I don't think so.

But we We kept talking and we
had many conversations over the

course of, over last summer.

And ultimately, we talked about some
potential opportunities to collaborate,

but I still wasn't quite there.

I wasn't quite to the point
where I'm like do I see this?

Do I see this as a good thing?

And eventually you know, the,
the gentleman that I was working

with said, well, what is it?

What, what, what would help you to feel
better about this kind of collaboration?

I said, well, If we're going
to do something like this,

I want it to be intentional.

I want it to be meaningful.

And I want it to be something that
will really bring about change.

And you know, I, I made a suggestion as
we were talking, I said, well, for, for.

One, I would love to see CPI come out
and say they're aligned with the alliance

in eliminating the use of seclusion
and reducing the use of restraint.

And they agreed to do that.

In a press release, in fact, that
went out last December, CPI said that

they're aligned with us in working
to reduce the use of restraint and

eliminate the use of seclusion.

And actually, subsequently, have
been involved in testimony around

the country supporting bills.

That would reduce the use of
restraint and eliminate seclusion.

But what was more important was I realized
in a couple of conversations that there

was a tremendous potential to collaborate.

I'm a huge believer, as you know, in the
brain science, in the trauma you know,

kind of the trauma-informed piece in.

You know, relationships and in
collaboration, and I'm a big believer

in what we would call kind of the
upstream piece of this, right?

Rather than, you know, if you look at
CPI, Crisis Prevention Institute NBCI

is really about crisis management you
know, it's de escalation, verbal skills,

and then potentially physical skills.

My thought was we really need
to move further upstream.

There's a quote from a Desmond Tutu
that says something along the lines

of rather than pulling people out of
the river, we need to go upstream and

figure out why they're falling in.

And I began a couple of
conversations with Susan Driscoll,

who's the president of CPI.

And, I got excited one day on our, our
phone call and was diving into the brain

science of why it was so important and
how I felt like if people knew a little

bit of brain science and, and really
shifted their lens, you could really

make a lot of progress in reducing
restraints, seclusion, suspension,

expulsion, corporal punishment, all the
things that were being done to kids.

And What began to develop, I was asked
to give a presentation to CPI staff on

the brain science and I did, and I, I
used it somewhat as an opportunity to

say you know, here's the brain science,
but here's, here's where CPI is from

my perspective, and, and here's where
I think that you could go in a positive

direction to, to lead to positive change.

And it was really well received.

And as people began, in fact, I remember I
had some people that were making comments

at the end and, you know, young man
was like, you know, Hey, I grew up with

ADHD and I had a lot of difficulties.

I'm so excited to hear
this, this conversation.

Well, it's now turned
into a project where.

We are collaborating with CPI to
develop training that is really

what I would call upstream training.

It's a way of, you know, and one of the
advantages here is we had begun a process

at the Alliance of trying to develop
some training around reducing restraints,

seclusion, a lot of punitive approaches.

But here's the thing, Stacey, if,
if, if we finish that training in a

year, year and a half, and then we
piloted it in a few schools in five

years, maybe we're in 25 schools.

Right.

There are 14, 000 school
districts across the nation.

CPI currently is in more of those
districts than anyone else when it

comes to the work that they're doing.

And I realized that if we could
partner with CPI and develop

something that would bring, bring
into a more mainstream setting.

You know, the neuroscience, the
trauma, you know, things that people

could do to understand regulation
and reframing behavior, that it

could have a tremendous impact.

So we are now actively developing
an initial course, which is actually

going to be far more than a course,
I don't want to get to say too

much, but I, I imagine it as an
ecosystem that will continue to grow.

It's really.

I think game changing, changing
the direction, not only for, for

CPI, let's say but also really the
approaches that are being taken

in general and at our schools.

So for someone like CPI to, to really
take this position in leadership and,

and trying to bring some change here.

And, and what I'll tell you, the,
the thing that really compelled me

when we finally decided to agree.

was after I had talked to a guy named
Marvin Mason, who I've been working

with at CPI, and Susan Driscoll, who's
the president, I, I realized something

that was really important to me.

And that was that they were people that
were doing this for the right reason.

This wasn't just about, well,
we need to be more profitable.

You know, Susan, who's taken a very
active role in this project kind of.

sees it the same way I do,
which is like, this is something

that could change the world.

And I don't mean that to be,
you know, overly dramatic.

I think that we can, I mean, of
course, anytime you change the

world for one kid, it's a positive
difference, but the potential for

something like this is really great.

So I'm excited.

And I think you know, we, like I said,
I just got off a meeting where we're

bringing in people from education
and various roles in education to

get their feedback and their input.

And this is actively being developed.

And my hope is That we've got a
program early next year that is

going into some initial you know,
pilot testing and then, you know,

kind of put out there more widely.

And again, you know, there's so much
need for this work out there and

there's so many amazing people doing it.

You know, whether it's you or, or Matthew
Bertel or, you know, James Moffitt or

people that are, you know, Jim Spoerler,
people that are doing this work out there.

But this isn't about, you know, like
a competitive kind of environment.

This is like, we need an army, right?

We need people out there doing this.

And, and I think that, you know, the,
the things that we will provide in this

training you know, for some would be
an appetizer to then dive in deeper

and, you know, take a program like
Laurie Nesitel's Applied Educational

Neuroscience, or, you know, go to a talk
by Mona Della Hook or whatever it may be.

But there's a lot of
opportunity here, I think.

Thank

Stacy Nation: you for being
willing to share that.

I think it's huge.

In my, you know, I'm in the western
states, CPI is a huge model.

When I go into schools and do a lot of
training, they say, we have the CPI model.

And I say, yep, and there's more, right?

There's, you can have that and
you need that upstream piece.

And I think that, I
think it's so important.

The story is important
for a lot of reasons.

One, it's crossing the

Guy Stephens: aisles, right?

Stacy Nation: Right.

Right.

It's truly an example of like.

We don't necessarily have the
same framework now, but we want

the same end result and how do
we collaborate to get there?

And I have yet to meet anyone
in an IEP meeting, anyone at

a treatment team meeting that
doesn't want the same outcome.

We all want kids to
feel better, do better.

situations to be better.

We want everyone to feel safe.

We just don't all have the
same base knowledge yet.

And so that talking to the army,
you know, building the army that

I tell people all the time, my
partner says to me, how many of these

people are you going to interview?

And I said, all of them, all of them.

And he's like, do they
have the same message?

And I said, underneath it all, we
probably all have the same message,

but we each have a different voice.

We each have a different
way of delivering it.

We all have a different
journey in how we got there.

And there is someone listening
who needs to hear each of us.

And that is what makes this
stuff so, so important.

So Thank you.

Thank you.

This is fun.

Isn't chitty chatting fun?

It's fun.

It's so much less formal.

Tell me, tell my, my audience,
which is now your audience, your

audience, now my audience, tell
our audience, how do they find you

Guy Stephens: if you want to be found?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, and we do want to be found.

And of course, you know, I mean, it's
interesting to say we want to be found.

And if I got to be a hundred
percent honest with you in a

way I wish we didn't even exist.

And what I mean by that is
the fact that we were started

around this issue, which is.

pretty, pretty upsetting,
you know, in terms of what

happens to kids and families.

But, you know, I think that our
mission is much broader than

just restraining seclusion.

And, you know, it's much broader
than even all the punitive things,

restraints, seclusion, suspension,
expulsion, you know, corporal punishment.

It's really about how do we, you know,
how do we change the things that we're

doing very often around behavior?

It's around the kids that are
so often misunderstood and many

people that are misunderstood.

But if people want to find us, of
course, they can always Google Alliance

Against Seclusion and Restraint.

Our website is EndSeclusion.

org End, E N D.

We are on Facebook, YouTube.

LinkedIn, Twitter we've got some
TikTok going on, we've got some

Instagram, so, you know, we're
in a lot of different places.

Our most active channel right
now is probably Facebook.

That's where we have the largest audience.

And the other thing I would say
is, you know, reach out directly.

You can reach out to me
at guy at nseclusion.

org.

And I say that really intending, like, if
somebody wants to reach out, reach out.

You know, part of our work is, is
legislative, part of it's education.

We also do a lot of individual support
where somebody calls from Colorado and,

and, you know, I've, I've you know,
talked to, in fact, we had somebody on

our, our panel here from, from Colorado.

You know, if somebody reaches out
to me, you know, I try to help

them point them towards resources.

So don't hesitate to reach out for any
reason, if there's anything that we can

do to, to, to help or, you know, whether
you're a, you know, a teacher who is

like, Hey, well, you know, we'd like
to find ways to reduce and eliminate

practices or you're a superintendent or
you're you know, a principal, you're a

parent, you're a self advocate, you know,
we have a community that's really broad.

So, yeah, lots of ways to connect and
I'm always happy to connect with people.

And you know, I'm looking
forward to you know, sharing

your your series here as well.

And probably, you know, saying, Oh,
well, that person was really good.

I got to have them over on our show.

So

Stacy Nation: I, I appreciate
you taking the time to do this.

I can always feel your passion
anytime I chat with you.

And I know it's, it's
clearly your dinnertime.

It's time for you to
go home to your family.

Thank you.

I've got one more meeting.

Thank you for your time.

I really appreciate it.

Thanks for being on the

Guy Stephens: show.

Absolutely.

My pleasure.

Thank you for having me.