Chitty Chats with Stacy

when it comes to apathy, reward
systems, consequences and punishment.

Sticker charts, behavior
charts, they don't.

Work.

Hey friends.

Welcome back to Chitty Chats with Stacy.

I'm really glad you're here.

This is a space where we talk with
all sorts of humans from all sorts

of places because stories matter.

And when we take the time to listen,
there's always something to learn.

So, wherever you're coming from
today, you're in the right place.

Let's get into it.

Hey friends, it's Stacy.

I am here this week with listener
questions that have been sent in.

I'm very excited.

I have two questions today that I'm gonna
cover today and I'm gonna read both the

questions separately and then we're gonna
talk about the answer together because

I think these two questions overlap.

And I am deeply appreciative for all of
you who are taking time to write in, to

send in questions, all the good stuff.

So let me get over.

So the first question comes from Steve.

Thank you.

Huge shout out.

Thanks Steve for writing in, and he
says, I've noticed a couple trends

in the last 10 years of teaching.

One, a huge spike in anxiety
and depression among teens from

social media, terrible politics.

Politics, crazy.

Price increases affecting families,
and more I see the impact in schools.

My question is, what can be done
about this beyond having a school

counselor or social worker in schools?

On a related note, I.

I see this huge amount of
hopelessness in poorer schools.

So many students give up easily while
in class and not showing up at all.

What can we do?

What is being done?

What is being done to
address this huge epidemic?

Okay, so let's.

That's part one.

That's from Steve.

And ironically or not, within the
next couple days, I get this email

from Theresa, and you'll see why
I'm coupling these from Theresa.

She says, my biggest issue that
has me up at night banging my head

against a wall and pulling my hair
out is when a student refuses to do.

Any work.

Not only do they not do work, but
letting them fail has no effect on them.

Missing out on fun activities
from free time to school-wide go.

Good behavior rewards, doesn't work.

Tracking charts other more
immediate reward systems.

Don't inspire anything sitting
down one-on-one for assignments.

Even offering to scribe
doesn't get any action.

One student in particular is
already on a shortened day because

they weren't attending school.

That shortened day has helped attendance,
but they're back to not coming in again.

Our, the parents are on board with
almost every idea we've come up with,

but they're also at their wits end.

I believe.

There's some sort of trauma history,
but not sure what, and I don't

believe that it's still occurring.

Not that we have much
impact on home life anyway.

What do we do?

Okay.

Huge thanks to Steve and Theresa.

I think that these two
questions, while separate are.

Broad observations of what
we're getting from teachers

all across the United States.

When I'm in different classrooms,
when I'm consulting with different

school districts, we talk a lot about
apathy in our students and we talk a

lot about mental health issues and the
huge increases in depression, anxiety,

all the things that go with that.

So I wanna talk about those sort of
together and then a little bit separately.

First of all, everything that we talk
about and we think about goes back to

our nervous systems, and it goes back
to how our brains are developing and

wiring and all that's coming with that.

And so it's really important to
acknowledge that the students we're

working with today are students who have
lived a lifetime with screens accessible.

Let me say that again.

Screen time has been accessible
the entire life of the students

who are in our classrooms now.

So we're seeing this
different nervous system.

We're seeing nervous systems, even
for those of us who grew up playing

Atari or Nintendo, the original,
we didn't have access to that on a

screen this far away from our face.

It was on a tv.

We also didn't have
access to that nonstop.

We didn't have access
to the internet nonstop.

Many of us had to use dial up or we got
our internet in the mail on a cd, and

so there are lots of studies that are
coming out because this is an epidemic.

To Steve's point, this is an epidemic.

We know that what is happening.

With kids having access to screens
early on, it is literally changing

the way their neuropathways are wired.

And we can't minimize that.

It's changing the way their sensory
system is being processed and what kind

of dopamine hits they're getting and
what's happening to their serotonin.

It's literally changing the way
their internal systems are working.

And so as educators, we
need to be aware of that.

We're very much up against, what
these students have had access

to when you think long over the
course of a lifetime and this year.

We have kids who were born during
the COVID Pandemic starting school.

And so what did we do during COVID?

We were on screens more than
we've ever been on screens in our

lifetime, and so we were accessing
the internet more than we've.

Ever access the internet.

And if you're born into a family and as
an infant, you can't go to playgroups

or you can't go to your music school,
your music groups or whatever it is

that we do toddler time with other
people, you can't do that because

we're in the middle of a pandemic.

Your sensory system is not going
to get all the things it needs

for your brain to really work
the most efficient that it can.

So I think that's one
piece of the question.

And what are we doing about it?

One research is coming out.

We know it's a problem, but we're, we
have the research that's supporting it

and we're starting to see even teenagers
in middle school and high school

really understand they need detox days.

They need days away
from their screens need.

To put their phones away.

They're actually getting, probably
hanging onto that and understanding

that even more than those of us who are
adults that didn't grow up with this.

So that's one thing.

We've got research that's starting
to support these pieces and that the

sensory system and the neurons and the
wiring of our brain are all different.

The second thing is.

We are in a relational deficit, so
while we have access to all this

information, you're even listening
to this either on Spotify or Apple,

or you're watching this on YouTube.

We have access to all this information.

We are not in relationship with
the people that we are getting this

information from, and so our kids
have access to more information than

they've ever had before, but they're
not processing it and experiencing it.

In relationship, so we
used to have news, right?

Morning news, 6:00 PM news, 10:00 PM news.

Now we have a news cycle that
lasts all day every day, and kids,

adults, humans are just processing
we're, we've got all this input.

And there's no relational output.

I remember watching the challenger explode
in my classroom with my classmates.

I remember that very significantly.

It was a huge event.

It was a traumatic event in our nation.

We witnessed it all together.

I'm recording this a couple
days after the Artemis.

Two landed.

And I'm very curious, just asking
yourself, how many of you watched

the launch with another person?

My husband and I watched the launch
at the same time, but we both watched

it on our phones in the same room.

We talked about it.

And then we've had 10 days, and I
haven't had another conversation with

anybody about it, but I've read a
lot about it on social media and I

say all that like, I'm one person.

I don't think my experience is that
different than most of you who are

listening to this or watching this.

And when we talk about our students,
we have to look at the relational.

Deficit that they have.

The one thing that schools can offer
kids that they can't get anywhere

else is relationship and connection.

And that's without a screen, right?

We can offer group work, we can
offer social time, we can teach

them how to have conversations.

We can teach them about conflict
resolution amongst the classrooms, and I

really, truly believe a piece of and we
have the book, the Anxious Generation.

We know there's a lot of literature
and research around this, but a piece

of those high rates of increases in
mental health and anxiety, depression

are related to relational deficits.

And so that leads to this component
around apathy and hopelessness, friends.

We are not interested and can't try
to do something when we don't have the

system built around us that will allow
us to fail, that will support us and

co-regulate us through that failure.

And so many of our students are no
longer feeling motivated to be at school.

They're no longer feeling engaged
to be en engaged in academics

and the work that we're doing.

And part of that is related to.

Their nervous system
really being frozen, right?

So when we come back to protective
factors, we have sort of those fight

flight, freeze, fawn flock responses,
and one of those responses is really

a frozen response, and that's apathy.

Our kids don't care and they don't care.

Because that is a protective
factor that is put in place.

They don't care because there are a lot
of people who don't care about them.

They're not experiencing a world where
care is reciprocal and that sounds silly.

It sounds maybe come on
Stacey, is that true?

Spend time with the students.

Full of apathy, get really curious
about where they're getting

relational input in their life.

Most of them do not have
a lot of relational input.

To Theresa's point, and I've said
this for decades, for a long time

since I've been doing this work.

You could not even like consequence
somebody by punish them by taking away

their birthday or throwing a book at
them to change behavior, especially

when it comes to apathy, reward
systems, consequences and punishment.

Sticker charts, behavior
charts, they don't.

Work.

They don't work with students whose brains
do not have buy-in to what is happening.

I just did a session with a
bunch of educators a couple

weeks ago and I said, how many of
you have had a speeding ticket?

I've raised my hand, I've
had several speeding tickets,

friends, I have a great car.

I love to go fast.

And guess what?

I've had more than one speeding ticket.

I've had a very expensive speeding
ticket that raised my insurance

rates and they still speed.

That is because the punishment of
speeding has not changed my behavior.

Students are the same way.

The punishment of making 'em do more
homework, keeping 'em in from recess.

Detention I-S-S-O-S-S.

It doesn't change behavior.

What changes behavior is
relationship and connection.

How come?

Most of us show up for work?

We show up for work because we want
money, but we also show up for work

because maybe we really love our job.

We love seeing kids.

We love working with our colleagues.

We love working with
the people in our life.

It's about relationships that we have met.

How many of you have stayed
in a toxic work environment?

Not because of the work you're doing,
but because you know you're in the suck

with other people you really enjoy.

It's about relationship.

So if we know that we have a
generation of students who have

this relational apathy and.

We are relational deficit, and they
have this apathy towards feeling

motivated to come to school.

To get work to complete assignments,
we have to bridge that gap.

We have to start focusing
on relationships.

In schools, and not just
relationships between adults

and students, but relationships
between students and students.

How are the students
engaging with each other?

How are they working together?

How are they brainstorming?

How are they creating, how are they
coming together and figuring out problems

and problem solving and decision making
and critical thinking as a group.

And so the more we start to focus on
relationship, the more we see our.

Students move out of that frozen space
and into a space where they feel safe.

And when you start to feel safe, you're
willing to try things and you're willing

to fail at things, and you're willing
to do things that look a bit different.

This is complex, and I actually
don't think that this is going to

get easier before it gets better.

I think it's gonna get
harder for a lot longer.

We actually can, we know, right?

We know that our students have
access to the content we're teaching

through the internet, through ai.

They can upload a question, they
can upload content information and

seek the answers from the internet.

So we have to really focus on what
do they not get from the internet?

From ai, what is the content that
they're not gonna, we have to focus

on relationship, and we ourselves
have to focus on relationship.

We have to seek relationship,
we have to be in relationship.

That can look a lot of different ways.

It can happen through schools.

It can happen through
spiritual or church groups.

Faith centers.

It can happen in sports, it can happen
in clubs or after school activities.

It can happen at your local
gaming store where you're playing

d and d or tabletop games.

It can happen in a music store where
kids are getting music lessons,

they're learning different things.

It does not have to be all in
the umbrella of a school setting.

But what I will say are so many
communities are trying to solve this

problem, and I want you, as you're
listening to just this, to just think of.

Am I focusing more on relationship
or am I focusing more on curriculum?

The school used to be a very critical,
important part of a community,

and when COVID happened, we lost
some pieces of that community.

The amount of parents I work with who
don't know what their role is in the

school any longer the schools that are
no longer doing, they're no longer doing

back to school night or a community event.

All of those, we've gotta
go back to that, right?

We've gotta work with parents to reach
out to teachers and teachers to reach

out to parents and to, for communities to
come together in a way that is supporting

our students in that school setting.

And so I just encourage some of you,
especially those of you who've been in

education for a long time, you have ideas
from the past that worked really well.

How can we take those ideas from
the past and move 'em into this

current setting and tweak 'em to be
engaging, to invite relationship to

work in the environment that we're in.

The other thing I would say is many of
you are at the whim and at the mercy of.

Which is wild of our education system
dictating what can happen in the

classroom, what can't happen in the
classroom how much curriculum you have

to get done in a certain amount of time.

We know that when kids play, when kids
feel safe, when kids have fun, there.

Curriculum comes along,
education comes along.

A teacher shared with me yesterday that
she's kindergarten, first grade teacher.

She's been focusing on play over the
last month, and her reading scores in

kindergarten, first grade have increased.

It, we know that works.

That also works at the high school level.

So if you're listening to this
and you're thinking, Stacy, you're

only giving me examples that are
middle school or elementary, I

want you to know relationship
works as we get older as well.

So is there a hopelessness
in poorer schools?

Yeah, there might be a hopelessness
in poorer schools because things

feel overwhelming, people are stuck,
or many of us are in survival mode.

I ask you to get.

Maybe reach into your own whole brain
functioning, your whole brain regulation,

and really identify how you can support
families, students in those poor schools.

It might be something as simple as
providing one meal a month working with

your community to see if you can provide
one mil a month at the school where.

Parents and families don't have to
cook one one night a month, or you

do that once a quarter and then you
bring people together in that location.

There's a lot of ideas, my friends,
but I want you to really think of how

do we get people out of survival mode?

How do we get them in
the safety of their body?

And from those two places we
land on better mental health.

We land on more engagement
in the school setting.

This is a very complex problem.

There is no easy answer.

There's not like a,
you're missing something.

That's not how this is.

When you have those students who
are very much struggling to engage.

We have to ask, are they safe at school?

Who do they feel the most safe with?

Are they safe to fail at their schoolwork?

Because many students don't feel safe
enough to fail, and so we have to

build and scaffold those components.

The other thing I will say about teenagers
and mental health is to remember that.

It's hard to be a teenager.

I call them internal chemical nightmares.

There's a lot happening inside the body
of a teenager, and what they really

need are adults who will not ride the
rollercoaster with them, but will who

will support the rollercoaster and notice
that the rollercoaster is happening.

And what I mean by that is they're
allowed to have these big ranges

of emotion, and we're not gonna
match that range of emotion.

We're gonna be steady, we're
gonna be the adults, we're

gonna hang in there with them.

And so just know that.

In order to address depression and anxiety
in our students, they need co-regulation.

They need adults who can help them
navigate that without matching it and

becoming a traumatic relationship.

And so we're missing some.

Skills and we're all working hard
to really address those skills.

So thank you to both Steve and Theresa for
writing in, for emailing, for responding

to my emails with listener questions.

And I wanna lead you, leave you
with this last piece of advice

that Steve wants to share with you.

And I think it's great.

I agree, Steve.

It's, he says, until you know where
a student is coming from, it will

be extremely difficult to help them.

Or get them on task in class.

And so I agree.

I think that understanding some
of the historical content of how

kids landed, where they are in
front of us and we're not gonna

know all the ins and outs helps us.

Help them move forward, get engaged.

So to Theresa's question about,
I think there was trauma history.

We may never know the trauma history
of our students, but what we can

do is ask our students, what do you
need to feel supported at school?

Where do you feel safe?

What's your favorite subject?

What are you most afraid to fail at?

We can get curious, right?

Curiosity.

Moves the needle over compliance.

Compliance is old school and we know
it doesn't work as much as it used to.

My friends it can't work actually
with this new group of students and

the way their brains are wired and
the way their brains are developing,

compliance is no longer serving us.

Curiosity is really where we're going.

So I love that you spent
this time with me today.

Thank you so much.

Drop a comment, send me an email.

I wanna hear more questions from you.

What landed today, what did you love
about today's episode, and what are some

more questions you have, stacy@gobiu.org.

Take care.