Chitty Chats with Stacy

Katie Kinder
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[00:00:00] I am so excited today to have Miss Katie Kinder. Uh, Katie Kinder came into my life through the Bridging to Resilience Conference that we just went to, and I have to be honest, I had to have you on to have a chitty chat because all I saw were these teal glasses. And I was like, I need to find out

I'm going to send you some.

I'm going to send you a pair in the mail. I'm going to put it in the mail today.

I love it. So Katie, I want to know, I know that you have a huge, huge history, career in education. Uh, I want, I want to hear more about you and then I have some deep dive questions for you. Okay.

Well, I'm super, I'm super excited to be here.

Uh, Stacey was our keynote at Bridging to Resilience and she knocked it [00:01:00] out of the park, everyone. So if you have not heard her keynote. Wherever she's going to be next, you need to like find, find it and go and listen. So I loved your stories about your daughter. I laughed, I cried. I mean, it was really, really good.

And I'm a study of all speakers. And so sometimes I go in like. All right. Let's see. Let's see what we got here. And you, you blew me away. So you were so good. Um, yes, I've been a teacher, instructional coach since 2006. I'm an English teacher, high school. I did some high school. And then, uh, I really found my place in middle school.

8th grade, 7th, 8th grade. And I am As a speaker, I was also a study of the game as a teacher, you know, I would go and like find the best teacher in the building and I would just go and like be a sponge and listen and watch and because your first couple years, you don't know, [00:02:00] you just don't know what you don't know.

And so I just became a study of the game and I loved it. I love kids. I love creating experience lessons around topics that are important to them. And I'm about innovation and engagement and how we got to keep up with our kids, especially post pandemic. They've been through a lot. Yeah.

What? So I'm going to, I want to go back so that we can go forward.

So what in your life caused you to go, I want to be a teacher. How did you land on this

profession? Well, I was a petulant teenager. My mom is an education rock star in Tulsa. She turned around several schools. She is phenomenal. She's retired now and she likes to call me on a Monday at 10 a. m. and be like, I'm having mimosas with your father.

I'm like live your best life. Um, and so she said to me [00:03:00] as I was growing up, like I think you're a teacher. And so being petulant and a teenager, I was like, you don't know me. And so I went to, how dare you speak into my

life? Mother knows me better than everyone.

And so I went to school to, for public relations and at journalism.

And I did, um, I did that and it wasn't awful. I didn't hate it, but it just wasn't like it didn't make my heart pitter pat, you know, and I credit the Muscular Dystrophy Association for showing me to my calling because I was working there doing event planning, fundraising, and once a month, I got to work with the DECA chapters all across the state of Oklahoma.

And when I pulled up to a high school, my heart They were my most favorite days. So I called my mom and I said, you were right. And she grounded me and I was 24. She took my keys away. [00:04:00] And so I went back and I got my certification. I stepped into a ninth grade English class and had zero. None. And that's why I say I became a study because like, I started teaching the way that I'd been taught, which was sit in straight rows, read out of the book, answer the questions in the back.

And that's just not how, even in 2006, like, that's not how we learn. That's not how kids learn. Especially in 2024, we have grown leaps and bounds. So I just started learning and growing and getting better, and that is kind of my journey. And then I started training and speaking, and it's just led to some really cool opportunities.

Love that. I want to chat with you. There's so much I want to chat with you about. So I'm going to try to be very clear on a couple questions. But one of the, the experiences that I have is when you're a speaker, you go into [00:05:00] these worlds where you don't know a lot about what's happening in the district.

And sometimes you land and you're like, Ooh, what's happening here? And sometimes you're like, how do I help move this needle? for educators. And so you're an educator, you show up with street cred because you're an educator, you show up, you're ready to do professional development. I want to, I have a lot of questions about this.

One, are your professional development trainings fun?

Absolutely. Come hang out. I think that's

an important part because I think educators are tired and they're forgetting to have fun. And there's lots of movement, right?

Absolutely. We're going to get up, we're going to move, we're going to do workshops. We are going to laugh, we are going to remember why we stepped in.

Like, you know, there is not a teacher in the world who stepped into a classroom like, I think I'll sit at my desk and yell at kids all day. That is not. It's not ever how anyone [00:06:00] starts. And so it's just about finding that spark. I also love to pour into my baby teachers. Um, and that's my baby teachers in their first five years because they are leaving the profession.

60 percent quit within the first five years. And I just feel like we're eating our young. So we, I do a lot of classroom management, uh, super fun, engaging things. How do you engage, uh, these kids in their, their brain research and what it looks like in that prefrontal cortex that we know is not developed.

And it's about just finding that passion, that fun and meaning in your work, for sure. Yeah, what is,

what do you think as both an educator but a speaker and a, you know, you've, you have your hands in a lot. So, what do you think has been, like, a meaningful crossroads for you? What do you think has really pushed the needle for you as far as what you've learned, what kind of books you've read, what are the resources that have pushed the [00:07:00] needle

for you?

Well, I mean, early in my career I got a hold of, you know, Ron Clark's Message and books. And so I really started emulating some of the things he was implementing in his school, uh, him and Ken Bearden, wonderful. And then, you know, I got ahold of Dave Burgess Teach Like a Pirate that is like, became my teacher Bible for a while.

And. Then I wrote my own book in 2021, which is, uh, Untold Teaching Truths, which I really wrote for how do we do this? Like, how do we have classroom management, have engaging lessons, how, like, and It's overwhelming, right? Yeah. And still thrive in sometimes a broken sphere. It's still pretty broken and I'm over there duct taping desks together and trying to, like, how do we not get overwhelmed?

How can we still thrive and make sure our kids are thriving? And so I wrote that and I [00:08:00] think, um, what was really cool was when I became an instructional coach and I had a principal friend who reached out to me and said, I want you to, I want you to be our instructional coach. I want you to come over. And I was like, I, it was a different building.

I'd never been there. I didn't know the teachers. I was coming from a building where I'd been there for, And I was like, okay, I'll do it, but I need, I need two model classrooms. Like I need you to give me students so my teachers know that I can teach. Because when you walk in and you're like, I know everything, they immediately turn their back.

Right. And that's just, unfortunately. Like, they're like, okay, instructional coach, like, right? And so I needed to be in the trenches with them. And I was, I was. And so my baby teachers could come and watch me teach. And then I could spend the day with them and I could teach their classes. And even the [00:09:00] vet teachers saw that, like, I could teach, and I was pretty good at it, and I had the same kids that they did, so we could troubleshoot together, and I think that's how you lead a school too, like I think as a principal, as a, as a superintendent, like that you're rolling up your sleeves.

And you are jumping in classes and you're jumping in schools and that you are seen and visible every day.

Yeah, love that. So a couple things I take out of that is the importance of relationship. Right? So in order to build relationship, you got to be in the trenches. You got to, I often say we don't take people where we're not willing to go ourselves.

Oh, I

like that. That's treatable. Right? I mean,

I never ask a kid anything, to do anything I wouldn't do. I don't ask teachers to do anything I wouldn't do. I'm sure as heck not going to go into somewhere and ask them to do something I wouldn't do also. And it sounds like you really value that and I love that.

Uh, when you say untold teaching truths, give us a little, give us a couple of these little [00:10:00] nuggets. I have some guesses, but I want to know. What

You

know, time is this like huge asset and one of the things we do for teachers is we just say do this, do this, do this, do this, and we just layer, like we build cakes of layers and they're like, how are we going to do all of it?

Right? So tell me some untold

teaching truths. Well, I really struggled with the title and it's in the book in the foreword where I am just talking about what I wanted to call it and I pulled my friends and all of the different things and I landed on this because I love alliteration because I'm an English teacher and it's really Bye!

You know, part memoir, like this happened to me, this is where I failed, and this is what you can do differently, uh, part classroom management, part engagement strategies, part, I mean, it's storytelling, and it's really, it's my story, and it's how I teach in my, in my room. And so there's real strategies in there.[00:11:00]

As well. And I just think it's the book I wrote, the book that I needed when I stepped into that classroom and didn't know anything. Yeah. And uh, so that's what I say, like it's the book I would get in the hands of every teacher. Love that in the world. Yeah. Love that.

So when you are chatting with teachers, coaching teachers, and you feel their exhaustion.

Hmm. Where do you, how do you meet them? How do you meet them in that exhaustion and then. Help them co regulate through it.

Absolutely. I'm connected with all of these teachers all over the nation that will like slide into my DMs. Like, Katie, Ms. Kinder, this happened today. What should I do? And I love that.

That's one of the things I love about the work is that once I'm connected to them, I'm always connected to them and I do meet them in their exhaustion. I get it. Like, cause I've been there, like, I know, and I really focus on like circles of influence. Like, there are things, and I'm a big, like, you can fuss about [00:12:00] all of these things at the State Department.

You can, you can be upset about what's happening nationally. You can be like, high stakes testing. You can like, freak out about that. You can, but there's, what can you control? Like what are the circle, what is in your circle? And what's in your circle is. your room and your students. So sometimes, and I just posted this today on Twitter, sometimes there's just a lot of noise.

And you got, and I have to say this to myself too, because I'm a big social justice, like, oh, we're gonna, you know, and I have to like, and my dad is the one that would say that to me, because I would be fussing as a 16 year old, 17 year old, you know, about soccer, about boys, about this, and, and he would just, he would hold up a circle like this.

And I'd be like, okay, okay, Circle of Influence. And still, as a 42 year old woman, I'm like, okay, Circle of Influence, what can I control? And it's really been a mantra in my life, and so that's really what I start with. Like, can you [00:13:00] control engaging and relevant lesson plans in your room? Absolutely. Can you?

laugh with kids? Like, can you, like, it's, it's hard sometimes because you got the IEP and the PLC and you got to go to this parent meeting and this parent's mad at you and then you have to grade 350. Like, I get it, but can you greet your kids at the door and smile at them and laugh and have a good time?

You get them for one year and that's really what I focus on.

Love that. So, in my life, we call those micro moments and micro moments really make up. what, who we are and how we're living our life, right? Yeah. That whole turning down the noise. And so I think that overwhelm comes from all the input that we get that may not be actually appropriate for our life.

Like, I don't actually really need to read the news every day. It doesn't impact my circle of, it's right. My [00:14:00] sphere. Right. Right. I don't need to know. what's going on in 14 other classrooms with all these other kids because they're not in my classroom. 100%. 100%. I

love that. I

love, I think that's a really important lesson that I often think is really missed.

And so I appreciate that you really, you're really talking through that. And then how do teachers, how do teachers absorb that when you say that?

It depends, there's a spectrum, uh, there's a spectrum. Usually it's really positive. Just to like, give them the time to collaborate, to talk things out. They don't get it.

So when they do get a PD day, and they bring in a, you know, PD presenter or whatever, and they're like, Ugh, I need time in my classroom, I need this, like, I get it. Uh, and then they'll leave and be like, God, that was really That was awesome. And I'm like, well, good. Like stay in contact. Let's talk about it.

And they, it's, it's good. People are like, you remind me that I [00:15:00] can be fun, that I can laugh with kids, that kids are more than a piece of data. I think a lot of times, you know, they're like, well, this, these are your scores and this kid is why, you know, why is this kid doing this and that, and why aren't they reading?

And I'm like, I don't know. Are they loved ? Have we loved them first? And I think I give them license to do some of that. And when we love our kids, and when we have engaging lesson plans, and when they know you're pouring into them every day, they are gonna learn. They are. And They can't not learn. Yeah.

Yeah. Can't learn. Is your classroom safe? Like, that's number one. Are you, is it physically safe? Is it, you know, psychologically safe? And so those are the kind of things that I focus on. Yeah, love that.

When you talk about safety, let's just, let's just go there for a few minutes. So what creates a safe classroom?

Uh, I think, you know, that's first six to nine weeks are exhausting. There's a reason that teachers come home and are [00:16:00] like, oh, those first six, nine weeks. Cause you are teaching procedures. And I'm always about like, yes, we have fun, but everything is flat rigorous. I mean, it's up here. I hold kids to high expectations and I think that's doing what's right for kids, holding them to high expectations.

And so some things that are allowed at home aren't going to be allowed at school. And I just use a lot of love and logic, like, Because you are going to have a kid come in and like take the pencil and throw it up and try to stick it into the ceiling or like talk across the room to his buddy and then that can very quickly get out of control, right?

And then nobody's learning because nobody's safe. And so I just use a lot of love and logic like, Oh, you don't realize Stacey that we don't talk out in this kinder's room. Do you have a question? Like right now we're doing individual work. Like do you have a question? And I just smile at them and like.

They pretty quickly, like, get it. And [00:17:00] so, you know, a lot of my principals will have sent a new teacher and they're like, Well, I didn't know we could do that. And I'm like, You didn't know? You could tell them. Hey, I love you too much for that. We're not gonna, we ain't applying today. And, and they don't.

They're going to push boundaries because they're kids, like 100%. But, they don't really want a chaotic classroom. That's scary. And they don't want to be in charge, they want you to be in charge. And I say that all the time, like, we have each other's backs, we're gonna be kind, and they start to believe it, and practice it, and it's awesome.

Love that. I often tell teachers, you're the cortex. Teachers of the Cortex, right? Because that prefrontal cortex isn't totally developed. And so when we talk about boundaries, we talk about holding expectations, we talk about restoration, we talk about all those restorative practice, teachers are the [00:18:00] cortex.

I love that. Because they don't have one. They don't have one. They're not capable of that decision making, problem solving, critical thinking. They can't go, oh, I'm talking out across the classroom and that's attracting 17 of my buddies. I, no, and kids are selfish. They have to focus on themselves. So. I love those really important examples because safety is not only, and you say six to nine weeks, that's such a critical timeframe.

Safety isn't created in one day. It's not created in one interaction. It's not created in one micro moment. It's created in this extended period of time that is exhausting where you're holding expectation, you're setting boundaries, your, your energy is also excited. Yeah. Here to learn and we got business to take care of.

So let's figure out how to do that as a group.

And it can be hard. I mean, it's difficult. Like, don't get me wrong. It's not easy. And I'm a morning person. [00:19:00] So like 730 in the morning, I'm like, yeah. And after lunch, I get into a carb coma and I have to remember like, it's not fifth and six hours fault that they have me at the end of the day.

Like I've got a. drop that mic every day. I've got to bring that energy to them. And oftentimes my kids at the end of the day, they are tired too. And they've been doing rigorous things, but they become my favorite classes because I'm like, okay, let's, let's, let's get down to it. And if I can hold my energy up, then they will too.

Yeah.

How much of your story has been self reflection, deep dive into understand your own nervous system, understanding your own needs, as you're talking about, like, after lunch, I have this energy dip. I got to be aware of that. How much of that, how much time have you spent just observing and noticing yourself?

I really, I want to say in the last, like, five years, really, like, pre pandemic, [00:20:00] 2018, 19, 20, we really started getting into that, and noticing, like, regulating, and how to So, Breathe. And I teach my kids that too. Like I have a whole sequence of the brain based classroom, like how colors matter and how movement matters and how, and I teach my kids that too.

And I think it's really important that the adults in your life can regulate because the kids can't regulate if you're out of control. And we know that. And that's hard, that's, it's messy human work, like, you can have a kid come blow up your classroom and it has zero to do with you and maybe they're gonna harm another kid that's in your room and who you love, like, I mean, you're put in some spots that are, that are tight and I think it's remembering to breathe and to regulate and then also to apologize when you are human, [00:21:00] like, hey, I, I got frustrated and I said that and I'm worried about it and I'm going to apologize to you.

Like, we're never going to be too big to apologize to our kids, like we can't, like we have to go find them and say, Hey, I'm sorry. Usually my kids are like, Miss Kinder, like, why are you worrying about that? That was yesterday. Like, we're over it, you know? And so I think that's really important.

Well, and those relationship fractures are important to repair.

And it sounds like when you seek them out, you're modeling that, right? You're trying. You're not going to ask them to do something you're not willing to do, even if they don't think it's a big deal. And it's interesting to me that you said 18, 19, 20, we were starting to do some of the self reflection, we're starting to ask students to notice, we're starting, and then pandemic hits.

Oh my gosh. So what have you observed from these beautiful pandemic years? Because I feel like it's catching up, right? Like we're there. We've noticed the developmental lapse. We've noticed that [00:22:00] there's some things that are occurring. Uh, this week I was at a basketball game and I, it was a high school basketball game.

All of the high school boys were sitting in one place in the audience and all of the high school girls were sitting in another place. And I really tuned into that. And I was like, This is what they used to do in middle school and now we have not integrated. I'm very concerned about what this means socially down the road.

So what are some things you've observed since we've been through this major global

drama? They are global drama. They are missing that two year like chunk, that gap, like those integral years. And my, I mean, my own kids were in middle school when it happened. Same. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so I can see it with them too.

Like they're just a little bit, you know, my husband will be like, our daughter's a junior. Why would she think that? I'm like, you know, there's just some, some emotional maturity that we're missing. What [00:23:00] I've noticed too, like anything pre pandemic that we were struggling with as teachers and educators and teaching kids was just.

magnified by 100 post pandemic. So our kids who are tech addictive, our kids who can't talk to one another without blowing up, they're deeply isolated. And I think it has become part of our mission and job to teach them how to. And I think a lot of teachers miss that because they're like, okay, well, we're going to read and then we're going to answer the questions you're going to write, but what about the speaking?

Like, think about how babies develop, like they start babbling first and they, and that's what we need to be doing with our kids, like sitting in Socratic circles and talking about texts or feelings or, you know, and bringing the academic language up here. And so that is something that I. love to do with my kids and teach them how, how to do that moving forward as an adult.[00:24:00]

I love that. I think that the idea of just kids practicing talking to each other in person, face to face, is something that's so critical. And what I've noticed is teachers who are allowing middle school and high school kids to just have those conversations, five or ten minutes just checking in with each other, let's actually have a discussion, our phones are put away, we're not snapping, we're not looking down, we're looking at them, those relationships are starting to build and those kids are feeling safe.

That's a piece of that safety. I think, and we talked about this at the Bridging to Resilience Conference, kids these days are struggling with just interacting with each other. It's really hard to read those cues. Do you think that needs to be in place for kids to learn?

Do I think speaking needs to be in place?

The connection and the

talking

to each other. Oh, absolutely. And this is what I tell my teachers too. Like, there's no AI or chat GPT [00:25:00] or any sort of technology that's going to replace you. Because there's You have to walk alongside kids during tough things, and that's a human connection, and we are meant to connect.

We're built to connect. We're built to go to Bridging to Resilience and listen to you and get up and talk to the person next to us and, and learn together. And that is how Kids who are deeply connected learn better than kids who feel isolated. Like, that's just research. We know that. So yeah, that's absolutely true.

Yeah, I just think it's important to reiterate that. Okay, so we're digging into the most important question that I have for you. I need to know about these teal glasses.

Stacy, I,

you are so known though. I tried to get into one of your breakouts and it didn't line up with all the things and then all these people are like just walking around like that was the best day of my life and I'm like, [00:26:00] how did I miss this?

How did I miss the best day of my life? So, I wanted to say because it's a, well, here's what I like about it, okay? One, it immediately brought people together. Okay, before you answer this question of what these are about. Two, it is a tangible item that someone is holding onto that reminds them of what you taught them.

And so every time they see those, they're like, Oh, Miss Kinder taught me this. Oh, Katie's there. I'm not alone. I'm not alone. Yeah. And then I'm like, uh, it's also just awesome. Okay.

I'll stop talking. Well, they became kind of like, it was on accident. Like I had, you look at some old posts of me, I have on red glasses, I have on, you know, black ones I have, like, and I would have different ones for different, but I started really wearing these like every day [00:27:00] and.

I would be standing outside of a breakout room waiting to go in to speak and they would have looked through the app or the program and people were already coming up to me before I spoke and being like, Oh, like you're the, you're the speaker. And I'm like, I am. And then I had friends and it wasn't just me.

Like I had friends be like, you've got to lean into this. And so we started to. And I started getting those fake glasses and I, I really. I think it was Darren Pepper, Dr. Darren Peppard, who said you need to get fake ones and throw them out. And I'm like, well that's a really good idea. So I found them that look pretty similar, but they don't have lenses.

And there's a little tag on them that just says if you hashtag Katie Kinder from OPC, Untold Teaching Truths, and I would, you know, put them out. And then people went nuts for them and I even have like I have a buddy here and I've [00:28:00] just started embedding it in everything like there's always going to be a pair of these teal glasses in anything that I do and it has made me really recognizable like people be like oh you're that teal glasses lady like I saw you on And then people are walking around the conference with their fake ones.

And I have people like, I need a pair. Will you send to me in the mail, please? I'll then mow you. I'm like, Oh, so funny. And they are. And I love that you said that you're gonna make me cry. Like, yeah, they're a, they're a representation of that. And I have a friend who is still in the classroom and teaching middle school.

And he was like, I need a pair of those glasses. And I'm like, okay. So I. I took them over to his middle school, and I got to hang out with his class, and he was doing a Socratic seminar with 6th graders. And he was like, they just don't know, like, they have to be wearing the glasses to speak. So these kids are like, you know, putting on glasses.

He texts [00:29:00] me like they broke. I need you to come today with with other ones. I brought him like five pairs. I'm like here Yeah, so

tell me what about that makes you feel those like feelings like what about that tears you up?

well, I mean just like You know, we have students years later come back and be like, gosh, remember that lesson that you did?

And I have, I have a kid that just messaged me last week and she was like, Ms. Kinder, I am at, I'm at UCO, which is a college close by my house. And she was like, I. didn't know what my major was going to be and I just decided that I want to be an English teacher. I want to be, I want to be the you that I had and I'm like bawling and now like my new, my new mission, my new goal is to love on all of these baby teachers and to, to remind them that I'm, that you're not alone and gosh, that makes me want to cry.

Stacey Nation, you're good at it. Gosh, you're good at it. [00:30:00] Well,

I, I think it's really important to say this to you, Katie, because this is the first real conversation you and I've ever had. So our listeners probably don't know that. And I think it's, there's, there's something, I say this to people who like you, you never underestimate the power of your impact.

And you are impacting people all over the world. And it's so important for you to just know That how you show up, who you are, the authenticity and alignment in your energy and your honesty impacts people in a way that is changing a really oppressive system. And it's so, I just wanted to, I needed to say that to you today because it's important for you to hear that because when you're in the grind.

You got a family, you know, you're out, you're out speaking, you're out traveling, you're out changing the world. And there's a lot to that, right? There's a lot when you're, when you're in a [00:31:00] different state and you're like, Oh, I'm back at my hotel. I could be with my family. What am I missing? You are giving parts of yourself.

To change a system that's really important and I just appreciate that so, so much.

Well, thank you so much. I mean, it's an honor to be here today with you. I think we're going to need a round two or at least we're going to have to go to dinner the next time we're together in the same space. I

agree. I agree.

So tell people, how can we find you? I mean, I found you because I hunted you down, but how do we find you?

Um, you can go to katykinder. com, I'm on all the socials, and you can find me at Untold Teaching Truths on Instagram, you can, I'm Googleable, which sounds weird to say. Somebody messaged me the other day and was like, I forgot your name, from Ohio Middle Level Educators, but I remember that you were that teal glasses lady, and I put that in, and it came up.

I'm like, oh my gosh!

This is awesome. [00:32:00] I love that. I love that. Okay, so if you're listening and you want professional development, you want a book study you could do with your teachers, you want to reach out katykinder. com. Katie's on all the DMs. You will not be disappointed in your energy and connection with Katie.

So thank you for having me here. This was fun. Thanks for being with me. I said for having me here. Thanks for being with me for you being with me. All right. Bye! I will see you soon! Bye!