Chitty Chats with Stacy

Joe Brummer: Hey friends.

Stacy Nation: Welcome back.

This is Stacy.

For those of you who don't know
me, my name is Stacy Nation.

I'm a licensed clinical social
worker, a mother, a daughter, a wife.

Human, all sorts of hats that I
wear, and I am so, so excited to

have one of my dear friends, uh,
on this video series today, Mr.

Joe Brummer.

Hi, Joe.

Welcome.

Joe Brummer: Glad you're here.

Hi.

I'm happy to be here, so

Stacy Nation: I have to tell a
little bit about how I know Joe.

So I stalked Joe.

Um, I'm just gonna be
totally upfront about that.

So I had an opportunity to go to
the Trauma-Informed Educator Network

Conference in Nashville in 2022.

Uh, made a proposal to be a speaker.

Got accepted as a speaker, but
my real intention was I wanted

to meet Joe Bremmer, uh, and it
totally has worked out for the

best for me, hopefully for you too.

But I sat in Joe's breakout session.

Joe is an expert on restorative justice,
restorative practices, and I just knew I

was gonna fall in love with you anyway.

I knew you were a person I
needed to meet in my life.

Now I'm very honored to call you a
friend, and I'm so happy that you're here.

I'm gonna let you introduce
yourself and tell all the all the

great things about you, and then
we're gonna get into a few things.

Joe Brummer: Wow.

Not that we wanna promote stalking.

It's love stalking.

It worked out this time.

Stacy Nation: Yeah.

It wasn't I I know.

I know, I know.

Fair enough.

I'm sorry, but I had to be

Joe Brummer: honest.

Fan girl.

It was.

It's all right.

Uh, so I'm Joe Bremmer.

I'm a consultant, uh, working in the field
of trauma-informed restorative practices.

Um, but I'm also a husband, uh, doggy
daddy, uh, brother, child abuse, survivor

hate crime survivor, trauma survivor,
uh, uh, healing focused, uh, person.

Uh, I don't know.

That's, that's probably all I could
magically say about myself today.

Stacy Nation: Um, I, I love that.

And there's so many layers to you,
but one of the things that always

draws me to you, Joe, is really your.

Your passion for trauma-informed
work, uh, and it's not even the

work like you are set on a mission.

I don't know if you would call
this your mission statement,

but this is how I see you.

You are set on this mission to
just make the world, the world

a better place for children.

Humans.

And I mean, would you,
would you agree with that?

Joe Brummer: Yeah.

It's funny, I was on the Attn
podcast with Julia and Ginger.

Mm.

And they asked me some question that
like, I'm not even really sure how

the conversation completely evolved,
but we came to this idea that like,

really what I'm trying to do in
the world is create a place where

a kid like me would've done, okay.

Mm-Hmm.

And I, I listened to it back and, and
they, they turned that comment that I made

into a meme and put it on Facebook and
I was like, that is kind of my mission.

Like let's create a world where
a kid like me going through a

bunch of crazy stuff that kids
shouldn't go through would be okay.

And so that has slowly become my sort
of mission statement that I wanna make.

I wanna create a world where, where
a kid like me growing up in chaos

and violence would've been okay.

Yeah.

Um, and not need.

Stacy Nation: Therapy.

I love that.

I love that.

And, and so part of this series that
I'm doing is really talking to some

of my favorite humans on the planet.

And I'm blessed to know quite
a few amazing ones, uh, and

really talking about, well, first
of all, people aren't alone.

Like there are, there are lots of
people out there who've been through

hard things, and you and I both, you
know, I'm an ACEs score of seven.

I know you're a High ACEs score and
not that ACEs are all encompassing,

but it's a way to communicate,
like we've been through some shit.

Yeah.

Right.

And now we're holding space for
adults who are also holding space

for kids who are going through shit.

And so when you're saying like, I am here
to create a space for the, the little Joe.

That's out there, out there to be
okay and be all right in the world.

What, what would that entail?

What do adults need to know?

What kind of, how do adults
need to show up for kids like

Joe Brummer: Joe?

Yeah.

What a great question too.

Um, I think I wrote a
whole book about that.

I think, I think we need to
start with this notion that

kids are not a blank slate.

Hmm.

We seem to look at kids and say we
have to mold them, make them into

some, they already are something.

Mm-Hmm.

You don't need to mold them.

You don't need to like manipulate them.

You don't need to twist them.

You need to allow them, and, and I
think, I guess that's the message

I would want for people is like,
that's already a little individual.

You don't own them.

You don't own them.

You don't get to tell them
what they're gonna be in life.

You don't get to tell
them where they're going.

Or like, we literally adultified
kids right from the get go.

We, we, we strip them of their identity
and say that they're a blank slate

and we're gonna mold them right away.

You just strip their
identity away from them.

And, and then on top of that,
we, we take kids and then we.

We really legitimately think
that they are strategic in being

able to manipulate the world.

Stacy Nation: Right?

Joe Brummer: And you and I both know
because we're Bruce Perry fans and

we've seen the upside down triangle.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That that's just not possible with
an undeveloped frontal cortex.

Right.

This, if your neocortex isn't there,
your ability to think in these really

extravagant ways that would let you
manipulate the adults around you,

that's just simply not possible.

Yeah.

Yet we treat children in this way that.

Tries to control how they
manipulate the world.

Yeah.

But the assumption of children is
dark and, and sinister and, and

like children are these little evil
things that we have to control.

And like I just, I hate that view.

So I guess the first thing, I think
the first step of this whole process

is realize and recognize that that
little human is a little human.

Mm.

With likes and dislikes and a
personality and, and, uh, they are

not your, they're not your clay.

Mm.

You don't get to mold them.

They're not your art project.

Mm-Hmm.

They are a child and they have
their own likes and their own

personality and their own sense of
humor and their own world to find.

Yeah, and so that'd be my first, the
first step is you, you've gotta recognize

that that thing in front of you is human.

I love that and not yours to manipulate.

Stacy Nation: I love that.

I, as I, as you're talking about
that, I'm thinking about my daughter,

of course, and we always say she
spreads her sparkle everywhere.

Not everybody loves her sparkle.

And she even came home one day and was
like, I spread my sparkle at school.

I don't think Mr.

So-and-So really liked that.

And I was like, and then Mr.

So and so reached out and was like,
listen, we can't be having that.

I was like, actually, that's just
part of her personality and like.

You telling her, you know, there's a
difference between right and wrong and how

we show up in spaces and all that, but he
really wanted her to turn the volume down.

And I was like, that's
just not who she is.

She's just not gonna do that.

Yeah.

I'm not gonna get in the way of that.

Like, you two gotta navigate that.

And so I just love the idea that.

You know, and, and most attuned
parents know that their children

are born with temperament.

They're born with personality, they're
born with these things already, right?

And so, uh, part of what you're
talking about, I've really been sinking

into this idea called the Cortex

Joe Brummer: Effect.

Tell me more I know is I'm coining,
you know, I geek out on brain science.

I know, and

Stacy Nation: I'm coining this term
and it's popping up in everything.

Uh, it's popping up in all the
work I do, and it's really like

adults have a cortex and that
cortex super duper helpful, right?

It helps us logic things,
it helps reasons, things

helps us understand things.

So we use it all the time, but
the cortex effect gets in the way

when we're talking to children.

And we add our perspective to
them and we think they shouldn't

be as angry as they are.

They shouldn't be as sad as they are.

They shouldn't feel the way they are.

They shouldn't have the right
they're having because we can

logic it through and we can reason
it, but they don't have that.

Right.

It also shows up when we think they
should be molded a certain way.

They should be acting anytime
we use the word should.

The cortex is in involved.

Yeah.

And, and so we have bigger perspective.

We have different, like we have wisdom
that they don't have, and so it sounds

to me like you're really like, Hey,
adults, let's see these kids as kids.

Let's let them be kids.

Let's let them experience and get curious
and provide a safe space for them to do

Joe Brummer: that.

Yeah.

Let, let's let them be the
little people that they are.

Hmm.

Play, but, but stop thinking of them
as the people they will become ah,

stop thinking about their future
because their present is real.

Yeah.

And their past will become their present.

And while you're busy planning out
there, you know, what will they

become and how will I shape them?

And blah, blah, blah, blah.

Realize that.

How do you show up in the moment?

I.

Is gonna be more impactful.

And the more you can
acknowledge and hold space Yeah.

For a kid to be who they are.

Mm.

Which by the way, might not be who
you want them to be, and you don't

get to decide those truth bombs.

Right.

And I, I say that as the, you know, like I
say that as the out proud gay man, right?

Like, you don't get to decide
who this child becomes.

Yeah, they get to decide that.

And some of that just
might be who they are.

Like a young gay person or an
artist or a musician or something

that's not part of the norm.

And that might scare you.

Yeah, because I want them to be happy.

If you wanna be happy,
love them for who they are.

Yeah.

Not who you want them to be.

Ooh,

Stacy Nation: you just
hit on so much stuff.

I mean, first an out,
proud gay man, right?

Like it, it's a journey.

Every person I know in the queer community
has some sort of journey to becoming who

they are, and a big piece of that journey.

It sounds like, and I'm curious
about this for you, is holding

space for other people's fucking
uncomfortable feelings about who

Joe Brummer: you are.

Yeah.

I don't think, I, I think holding space is
an interesting term for that because it's

more like tolerating people's bullshit.

It's a lot more accurate.

But, uh, you know, my husband and I joke
often about this silly things that are

said to us, like in conversations and,
and just, we know people mean well.

And, and, and I, I, I do recognize that,
but asking us silly questions like, who.

Stacy Nation: Because there's no woman in

Joe Brummer: your relationship
and women, that's it.

Because that, that, you know,
that's what they're really asking.

Which one have used the woman?

Yeah.

Which, you know, it's,
it's just silliness.

Like we actually just share those chores.

Like it's not my night to cook
'cause I'm talking to you.

And so it's not my night to cook.

And so actually I think it's Costco
chicken night 'cause we're both too busy.

But, uh.

I, I, I'm amazed at like, the
questions people ask us, the, the,

the space you have to hold, but also
most people don't recognize Mm-Hmm.

Maybe in today's world they would
with, you know, governor DeSantis

and, and, and, and, and other things.

But I, I don't think on the day-to-Day,
most people realize the struggle gay

people have, um, and especially gay men.

Mm-Hmm.

Like, I will, I will absolutely call
that, you know, gay men I think have.

A bigger challenge than I, I think
other people in the, the initials.

And, and that's because
the ICH factor, right?

Like we get, we all we're gay men.

We're not oblivious to
what is said about us.

And, um.

I think living with that in the back
of your head that people constantly

think you're a danger, but you're
constantly perceived as a threat while

at the same time you're supposed to
be entertaining, be able to cut hair

and decorate people's apartments.

Like yeah, that's a lot of
expectations to live up to you and

And most of them are just crowd.

Yeah, just crowd.

And like, I couldn't decorate my, like
my house is like the craziest place ever.

There's hardly any
decorations because I'm not.

Good at decorating.

That's just not one of my things.

It's not part of your DA as a gay man,
it's not part of my DNA as a gay man.

Like, and I can't do costumes.

I can't dress up.

I'm not fashionable.

I'm literally wearing sweatpants
and a t-shirt with no shoes.

Um, and this is how I show up for work.

So, you know, that was not one of
my, you know, so all this stereo.

So you live in this bubble
of stereotypes that you know.

You just have to put up a, but
most of those stereotypes are evil.

Hmm.

That you're out to indoctrinate
children and, and, and hurt people.

And the term, the term groomer has
become popular, but I don't think people

realize how hurtful and how detrimental
that stuff is to developing brains.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Hearing that stuff at 50 is not the
same as hearing that stuff at 12.

Stacy Nation: Yeah.

What, before you're out, before you're
fully developed and you're still

exploring, you're trying to figure out
like, how do I, how do I reconcile all of

these things in this world that's sending
these messages that I'm not an okay person

Joe Brummer: because Right.

I'm flawed and I'm broken.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Stacy Nation: What, what would
you say to the adults who are,

who are in this journey with kids
who are exploring these things?

Like what.

What does he need to know, Joe?

Joe Brummer: Hmm.

I wish I knew God.

Um, I, I think love relentlessly.

Just love relentlessly because
gay kids just are surrounded

in a world that rejects them.

So you become so sensitive to rejection.

Yeah.

And, and I don't know if that's
true of me, like as a bullying

survivor and, and a and, but a
lot of that all became part of it.

It all, you know, I was called the
big F word as young as I could before

I even know what that f word meant.

I was being called that word.

And, you know, you sort of grow
up in a world of rejection.

And so the best thing that people could
do for gay and queer people is, is.

Minimize the levels of rejection,
the repetitive nature of

rejection wears you down.

Yeah.

And to constantly turn on the TV
and be like, Hey, more rejection.

Let's ban books about gay people.

Hey, more rejection.

Don't let those people
in your kids more reject.

Like, it's just so much rejection.

Yeah.

And, and I think that
really wears down on people.

So the more aware we can become of that.

The more we could create a society that
says, you're okay, you're, you're welcome.

We love you.

Yeah.

And that, that would be, I mean, I'm lucky
that I've surrounded my life with people

like you and people like Meg and, and,
and, you know, our friends, you know, in,

in the trauma-informed world that we've
created this great circle of people.

Yeah.

And then I of course have a circle of
people for a band that I follow and, um.

You know, when you have those
circles of people to minimize

rejection, that's awesome.

And I think that's why queer people
stick together often is because at

least we won't reject each other.

Of course, that's not totally true either.

Um, you know, but at
least you have the space.

But that's, that's I think what
parents on the journey need to know.

Yeah.

Your, your kid needs to know that no
matter what they do, there's no more

gonna, there's not gonna be rejection.

Love that.

And, and that's very different from
my own family who, you know, my

parents, my parents did not kick
me outta the house for being gay.

Uh, my parents kicked me out
because I challenged them about

being abusive and, and hitting us.

And, and, and so that
didn't work out so well.

So I ended up homeless.

Um, but, uh, you know, I know
a lot of gay kids, you know,

come out and end up homeless.

Yeah.

And so it's the, the levels of
rejection that people feel from society.

No wonder, you know, there's a 50%.

Suicide temperate for,
for young queer people.

Yeah.

And of, of course there is like,
no one can deal with that kind of

rejection in that, you know, we know
rejection shows up on a brain scan in

the same place as its physical pain.

Mm-Hmm.

And, and so like, that's one
of those things that hurts us.

It's humans regardless why.

But for, I think queer people,
it's, that's a, that rejection

is everywhere you turn.

Stacy Nation: I have a principal I
work with and she often says, love and

belong is love and belonging are the
only values that live in our school.

Oh, that's beautiful.

Right?

Every child that comes to our
school will feel love and belonging.

And so, you know, she's recently had this
conflict with some parents who are like,

ban these books, don't talk about this.

Don't talk all the
things that we're seeing.

Yeah.

And she very clearly stated, this
is a space for love and belonging.

We need to have books that
support love and belonging.

We need to have.

And I was like, it's just so simple.

It really is so simple, right?

Yeah.

It doesn't actually have to be about
all the various categories or all

the various pieces of our identity.

It can be love and
belonging for all races.

Love and belonging for all
sexual identity people, right?

Like all those pieces.

Love and belonging for
kids who are abused.

Love and yeah, love and belonging
for homeless and, you know, unhoused

humans like, and I just love that
the through line for that for

her was love and belonging is all
that va the values we need here.

What, how does it land for
you when you hear that?

Joe Brummer: I love that idea.

Yeah.

And I need to see it in action
because I hear that, but I mean, I

mean, you think about that for, for
people like me, like I've heard that.

Kind of stuff.

Like we love everyone here, and
then I see your practices and then

I see you vote for politicians
that would like throw me in a camp.

And so like, until those words become
action, I get really skeptical and

cynical, which I, I honestly wish I
wasn't so cynical about that, but,

but I am, I don't think it's skeptical

Stacy Nation: or cynical.

I think you've taken a
lot of data in the world.

You've collected it and the data says
you're not welcome in a lot of spaces.

Then when people say, wait a
minute, but you are here, I think

you're sort of like data and see

Joe Brummer: what you say about that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I, but I love the concept and if,
and if this principal can really

make that work for every kid.

Awesome.

Stacy Nation: A win just in, in this
situation is that she has not had to

hire an actual teacher for several
years because they aren't leaving

'cause they love this space so much.

Joe Brummer: That's, that's when
you know you're doing it Right.

And in education today.

Yeah.

Where the, the turnover
rates just like skyrocketed.

Yeah.

Uh, I mean, many of the schools I'm
consulting with are telling me that they

have, you know, they're like, how do
we train the new teachers on everything

you've taught us these past three years?

You had a 15% turnover.

It's like, we haven't gotten anywhere
because you keep losing everyone.

Um, and, and, and that's really
not the district's fault.

It's, there's only so much
they have the ability to do.

Stacy Nation: And I think you're really
speaking to the importance of teachers

feeling safe and feeling love and
belonging in their work environment.

You and I are both in this
unique situation where we go into

schools, we do a lot of consulting,
and we do a lot of coaching.

We're in different environments.

What are the things you're seeing?

What do teachers need to
feel loved, belong, supported

Joe Brummer: safe?

I think right now, and it might, might
not be what teachers think they need.

But what I definitely see as a
need is, is there needs to be, for

every SRO that we hire, we should
be hiring three social workers.

Like the state of mental health for
children has become so toxic and

traumatizing and normalized, like
we've literally normalized trauma for

children to a degree we think they need.

Things that actually traumatized them.

Mm-Hmm.

And so teachers are then
left with children who can't

handle these big feelings.

Yeah.

Who can't manage the stress of the trauma.

And then in order to fix
it, we add more trauma.

Like punishments and rewards
and incentives and, and positive

behavior systems and, and other
nonsense that is just harmful.

Yeah.

And so rather than actually taking these
hurting kids and giving them support

systems, we're actually normalizing
the trauma to the point where the

way you fix trauma is more trauma.

Like that's bizarre, isn't it?

But the people paying the
price for this are teachers.

Educators who are then left to be parents,
to be support systems, to make connections

with kids who don't wanna connect.

Uh, yeah.

That's asking a whole lot of a group of
people who didn't get trained in that.

No.

Stacy Nation: No.

And it's, it just stresses the system
so much that it, we're seeing teachers

say, Ugh, I don't wanna do that.

I'm, I

Joe Brummer: don't wanna be in, and
then we give them a self-care workshop.

Yeah, like, like let's really like
put salt on the wound and say, oh,

you just need a self-care workshop.

Here's some bath bombs and a and a,
you know, facial, you'll be fine.

You know?

No, that's, that's not gonna be fine.

Stacy Nation: No.

You know.

Will you, will you talk a little bit
about the work you do in schools?

What are some of the things?

What, what, why in the world would
a school bring Joe Bremmer in?

Joe Brummer: Oh God, that's, yeah, that's
a fantastic question because they're nuts.

Um, I think the work I do in schools is,
is really around, you know, I, I prefer.

To work with schools who are doing
whole school transformations.

Hmm.

Paradigms.

So I don't wanna come
do the one and dones.

I don't wanna come just do a,
a checkbox thing where like,

oh, we did trauma training.

Great.

Uh, I really wanna see this through.

And so I wanna go into a school and I
want to be able to like work with staff.

But first things first, we need a team.

Like we need somebody that,
I, I'm an outsider to your

community and your school.

Schools are little communities.

I'm not part of that community.

I'm an outsider, and so I don't
believe that I can come in and

make a whole bunch of change.

And, and I don't think
that's my place to do that.

Like, I can't go around
disrupting everything.

Although Matthew Portell might
tell us we should, um, you

know, unapologetic disruptor.

But, but I, I, it's not my place, right?

And so I wanna go into
school, I wanna form a team.

I wanna train that team
as indepthly as I can.

And get them going on their journey.

'cause you and I both
know this is a journey.

Like there's no one and done,
there's no, there's no I'm trained.

No, you're, you're just,
you're never trained.

There's just not a thing.

And so I wanna work with the schools
that wanna form the teams that wanna

create a vision for their school.

Like what will this look like
when we're trauma informed?

What would this look like?

One we're.

Purely restorative.

Like there is no punishment
to be found in our schools.

'cause you know me well enough too.

I have no use for punishment.

I, I just think it is the bane of
our society and it's caused us more

problems than it is ever solved.

Um, mass incarceration,
detention, suspension, none

of this has solved anything.

And then if you bring in corporal
punishment, my God, like that shouldn't

even be a conversation in 2023.

It's like flatter theory.

Like, let's debate punishment.

Let's not debate punishment.

'cause that's like debating whether
or not the earth is round or flat.

Like does, does hitting children
to, you know, a problem?

This is a flat earth conversation.

We should stop having.

Um.

You know, I'm, uh, that's where
I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll Pop

Stacey Patton in and say, everyone
should read Stacey Patton's book,

spare the Kids, which is primarily
written about, you know, corporal

punishment and, and black children.

But, but I think the book is universal
for everyone and, and has a lot to

teach white families about, uh, you
know, what, what hitting children

does to their nervous system, um,
and how we just keep supporting that

and all the problems that it causes.

Are, are then this revolving cycle.

But I, I, I think, you know, the messaging
at this point in schools is that I wanna

go in, I wanna train a team, I wanna
then start implementing slowly all these

processes that are gonna take us a good
three years to really put in place.

So, you know, borrowing a line
from my friend Justin Carella, uh,

it's evolution, not revolution.

Mm-Hmm.

And I don't want it to be a revolution.

I don't.

Because then I think it backfires.

Yeah.

Or it gets kicked to the
side after a couple years.

But when we, we really intentionally
make change within school systems

that we change our language.

We change the focus of school to be about
connection first and learning second.

That way the kids that came to
school to get love, get love.

Yeah.

And they also happen to get an education.

Like I think education needs
to be secondary in education.

Love needs to be first.

Right.

And, and, and I know our
team would love that, right?

James Moffitt's going, you know,
love, I love you, and there's

nothing you can do about it.

It's, it's James' is, is,
is, is, is lying that I love.

And, and so can we make the
focus of school about a, a space

to just grow and be a human.

Hmm.

And, and, and so that's kind
of what I wanna see in schools

and what I wanna help them do.

But the only way we can do that
is to have adults recognize

the significance of trauma.

Yeah.

And responding to that trauma with
punishment is just effing cruel.

Like, I don't even know a stronger
way to say that is fucking cruel.

To take a child that's already struggling
at home, that's showing up as a behavior

problem in class, and our response
is to add suffering to their life.

That that's where like the passion comes
from for me on like, that is so wrong.

Just wrong on so many levels that
we have these struggling children.

And our response to them is to make them
suffer, which is what punishment is.

I've done this exercise in my workshops
for, for years now, where I get people

to define punishment, consequences,
accountability, and discipline.

Tell me what those words mean.

Yeah.

And now tell me how they're different.

What is the difference between
a consequence and a punishment?

What is the difference between
discipline and punishment?

And across the board, we always
come to the same conclusion.

Punishment is inflicted on you.

By somebody who has power and
the goal is to make you suffer.

I have yet to have a group not
come to those three conclusions.

No.

So lemme get this straight.

A person abusing their power to get
someone to change by using suffering

when other options were available.

Sounds pretty much like violence to me.

How do we get people outta that framework?

And, and I think the real answer
is to make our restorative

practices trauma-informed to
understand how brains work.

Yep.

And to make sure that when we
circle up that we're not doing

that through a lens of behaviorism.

'cause if you still think that kid
made poor choices with the little

cortex they have, you're off.

You're off, you're wrong.

And that there's nothing restorative
about this circle anymore.

Like it lost its restorative
quality when you didn't recognize

the what, what got us here.

Yeah.

And what got us here is, is
a kid who's developing cortex

couldn't handle big emotions.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Stacy Nation: It's been interesting to
know you and talk to you and watch you

and observe your, your, your classes
and see people interact with you.

And one of the things I just love
about you, Joe, is your truth bombs

and not very many people wanna
hear what you have to say, right?

Like there, it's, those are hard truths.

And you just stand in it.

And you stand in the truth.

And one of the things that comes up,
and I know there are gonna be people

listening to this who are gonna have
this question, and I think it's such

an important question, I wanna ask, I'm
dying to ask you on record for a while.

Uh.

You and I have been parts of these
conversations where people are like,

restorative practices don't work.

We have them in our school.

Restorative justice doesn't work.

We've been doing circles
and they don't work.

And I, I know, I know they work and I
know you have an answer to that and I

wanna know what your response is to that.

When people say restorative justice,
restorative practice doesn't work.

What do you, what does Joe Bremmer
restorative practice experts say to them?

Joe Brummer: So there's the
professional answer, and then

there's my cynical answer.

Oh, this is good.

Okay.

We

Stacy Nation: want, give us both.

Joe Brummer: We wanna hear both.

So my professional answer is like, well,
let's look at your implementation process

and your training and, and blah, blah.

And, and, and then my more cynical
answer is like, most of the schools

where they say, this isn't working.

Either just started the process and
have very little restorative going on.

Like there's very little in their
school that's really restorative,

or they're only using circle to
address problems, but they're not

building a community and relationship.

And so this is relational work, right?

You, if you just think you can
circle a kid up with your power and

make them, you know, amend, make
amends, then, then you didn't get it.

But most of these schools where people
say this isn't working or the kids are

running the school, or you and I both
are to all of that stuff, um, you find

that they're doing very little of the
practices, oh, this isn't working well,

that's 'cause you're not doing it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Stacy Nation: This is not what, and
I think you're speaking to something

that's really important, both in trauma
informed practice, restorative practice.

Right.

Both, both of those human
informed practices really is

that it takes relationship.

Yeah.

The reason behaviorism, the reason
punishment, the reason, consequences,

spanking the list is long.

The reason those are attractive
is 'cause it's one and done and

it's over and we're out the door.

Like I can deliver this punishment and
then I've done my job and my hands up.

It's easy.

Yeah.

And the reason this other stuff
is harder and more effective and

works is because it's based in

Joe Brummer: relationship.

Yeah.

Do you wanna know what the difference is?

I'll tell you the difference.

Punitive things don't work solely
because they're a transaction.

Mm-Hmm.

That you don't have to show up for.

Nope.

You just, you just do it.

Oh, you got into a fight.

Got suspension.

See, in 10 days.

Yeah.

But, but restorative practices require the
adults to show up as their human self and

they don't get to like back out of that.

'cause it doesn't work
if you don't show up.

No.

And so I think one of the things that we,
we don't talk about in restorative, we

don't talk about it in trauma informed,
you know, we see this as relational work.

It means that you as a human
have to show up to do it.

Yeah.

And sometimes we show up and we
realize we don't have the capacity

to show up the way we need to.

And if I haven't done my own work on
my own stuff, I can't show up because

I'm not gonna, I can't do anything.

So that other stuff like punishment and
suspension, that stuff's easy 'cause

I don't have to address my own shit.

Stacy Nation: Yeah, you'll
appreciate this story.

So I, you know that I do this
course called, how does your

trauma impact your classroom?

Joe Brummer: Oh, I love that.

I took the course that
was great, and it's,

Stacy Nation: and it's been a,
it's been eyeopening for me, right?

I'm a therapist.

I'm a therapist by trade.

We talk about our shit all the time.

We go down our road, we talk about
our feelings, talk about our past.

Like, this is just my life.

It's normal.

And as I got into doing a lot
of this work with the educators,

much like you, I was like, oh.

People have to be taught
about their own journey.

They have to be taught
how to be vulnerable.

They have to be taught about looking.

And I had this woman and I do this
exercise about triggers and why is a

kid triggering you and these are the
five questions you should ask yourself.

And she was like, I never in
a million years thought that

I would have responsibility in
why this kid is triggering me.

And I'm sure you see that, right?

Like what a powerful journey this is on.

When we show up as humans, when we do
relational work, when we figure out

how to connect and feel safe and build
relationship, it really does start to

shift the whole dynamic, doesn't it?

Joe Brummer: I think schools start
to become trauma informed and

restorative when the educators in the
building start owning their own stuff.

Hmm.

And it sounds like the name
of a, of a book, right?

When the Adults Change, I didn't write
that book, but, uh, you know, uh, I, I

think when we get the adults to really
focus on their own stuff, you open up the

doorway for them to hold space for kids.

Some of whom are, you know, you
and I both know, I, I'm sure

you've seen the CDC report on
adolescent mental health right now.

And, and we know that the adolescent,
we, we know that children's mental

health over the course of the
last 15 years has just tanked.

And that's meant that educators and
adults and anyone who works with

children, whether it's youth services
or um, you know, diversion programs.

'cause I'm doing a lot with, you
know, juvenile justice right now.

Yep.

You know, when we show up in any kind
of youth serving capacity, whether

it's education or juvenile justice,
we realize we have to show up.

Yeah.

We have to show up.

It's huge.

And, and if we don't, they're,
they're not talking to us

'cause they know we're not real.

They can te like kids have a bullshit
meter that's still good that they

know when you're not being authentic.

And, and, and I.

Prevents us from having some of the really
meaningful conversations with kids that

would actually let them know we love them.

Yeah.

Stacy Nation: Love that.

Joe, you have so much value to add to the
world, and you and I could talk for hours

at a time because that's just what we do.

Let me know, like, how do people get
ahold of you if they need a joke bummer

in their life, how does, how does

Joe Brummer: that happen?

Go to joe bremmer.com.

That's probably the
easiest place to find me.

Uh, my little home on the web.

Okay.

Uh, but you can also find me
on Twitter at Joe Bremmer.

Uh, you could find me on Facebook.

I, I pretty much anybody that
sends me a friends request,

that looks pretty reasonable.

I'll, I know if I see you work
in education, I'm probably gonna.

So you could send me friends
requests on Facebook.

You can find me at, uh, the Restorative
Justice and Education Facebook group.

You can find me, uh, through
the Trauma Informed Educators

Network with Matthew Portel.

I, I'm a proud member of that group.

You could also find me through
the Attachment and Trauma Network.

Yeah, through their, um,
their PD collaborative.

And so I'm also a member of the PD
collaborative and I, I happily do

workshops and things through a TN and
do things through their conference.

You can always stalk me and come to
the A TN conference in, in Dallas.

We'll be in Dallas in February.

You, if you so choose to spend the money,
you can come stalk me at, at A A TN I'm,

I'm sure I'll be there doing something.

I volunteer every year, uh, to,
to work with that conference.

I, I.

A hundred percent support that conference.

Um, and, and also the trauma-Informed
Educators Network Conference,

which happens I think in two weeks.

Yeah.

I'll be presenting on, on
at that conference as well.

So there's lots of ways to find me,
but, uh, one thing I want people to know

all the time is I'm super approachable.

Like, don't, yes.

Like, I, yes, like, send me an email.

I don't, you know, I'm,
I'm super happy to chat.

I'm like, I, I, I someday will,
if it might not be coming already.

Like it's, it finds overwhelming
sometimes how many people are

trying to like, talk to me.

Um, but I, I wanna make space for
people and I don't want people

to feel like, uh, you know.

I'm just a regular guy, so like,
please reach out and, and, and I'm

a trauma survivor that wants other
trauma survivors to to, to survive.

And so I, I want people to
be able to reach out and I

want people to, to, so yeah.

And even my email's easy.

It's my name joe@joebuer.com.

Love that.

So you have Reach

Stacy Nation: out, look, you have a book.

That's awesome.

I refer to lots of people.

I'll make sure we put the link
to that when this goes out.

You have another book coming out in,
in the near future at some point We do.

Joe Brummer: I actually just found out
who's gonna write the forward today.

Stacy Nation: Oh, I can't
wait to hear all about it.

I'm gonna just hang on.

And so what I wanna say, I
wanna leave you with this.

Yes, I stalked you.

Yes, you're a hate crime survivor.

I provided you a corrective experience
where someone was coming to you and loving

you and like, Joe, I need you in my life.

And I'm so thankful that you
were open to that and you were

open to meeting and connecting.

And I have deep respect for
your story, your values.

You're seeing a lot of things
that people really need to hear,

and you and I both know that.

When you're the delivery of the
truth bomb, it's all in how it lands.

And I think at the, at, at your heart,
you're creating space for, for those

Joes to feel safe in education with
adults who are responsible for them.

I just appreciate you, brother.

Thank you so much.

Joe Brummer: Thank you.

I right back.

Got you.

Like, I'm sure people, uh, people who've
been following your work know that

you, you have an ACE score, you, you.

You have the history, but you're
also doing exactly the same thing.

We're part of this group of people
that took the crap we've been through

and decided we would not allow
other people to go through that.

Yeah.

Love that.

And so, yeah, that's, there's
something to be, um, this, this group

of people that includes you and, and
people like Meg Baldwin and, and, uh.

You know, Matthew Portel, James Moffitt,
ginger Healy, like this huge group of

people that, you know, Dustin Springer,
Lori Desel, Bruce Perry, like all these

people that are literally out there trying
to make other people's lives better.

Yeah.

When ours wasn't exactly kosher.

Hmm.

Like that.

That's the kind of like, I
have such admiration for that.

Team of people and, and I feel a
hundred times, um, honored to be

even part of that little group.

Same what I, I see my name sometimes
placed up with other people's names,

who I like, like literally like I
find my heroes and I'm like, really?

I'm being thrown in the same
conversation as as X And I'm like,

yeah, that's, that's mindboggling to me.

Oh, and so, but I, I love this team
and I love that you're a part of it.

And so thank you.

Stacy Nation: Well, I'm honored to be
on it and I love that you're in it too.

And the words you say today, the, the
out proud gay man giving us some insight.

Like everybody cooks, like we don't
have to actually answer those questions.

Those are important for us
to hear, so I appreciate you.

Love you, brother.

Yeah.

Right back at you.

Take care.

Thanks for being here today.

Joe Brummer: Bye.

Thank you.